Is God competent or incompetent?

Discuss atheism, religious apologetics, separation of church & state, theology, comparative religion and scripture.
Post Reply
User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Is God competent or incompetent?

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:18 pm

Is God competent or incompetent?

We are told in scriptures that evil begets evil and good begets good. God, as our creator, according to scriptures, creates us all as sinners, which many see as evil.

God can thus be seen and judged as being the original sinner since the fruits of his labor (us) went bad or are born bad. A tree is known by its fruits. What else could come from a sinner tree but sin?

I give God a fail on competence for the following reasons.
God created heaven that produced Satan. Fail.
God created Eden which produced Original Sin. Fail.
God had to reboot creation with Noah’s flood. Fail.
God sent his son to forgive mankind instead of stepping up himself. Fail, for moral reasons.
God also had to create hell for his rejects which scriptures say will be the vast majority of us. Fail.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds and if we believe that, then the Christian God would obviously be rejected by Jesus and agree with my fail judgement.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:56 pm

I’m not sure “agreement” is the proper question considering most of us are atheists. :D

There are a few nits I’d pick with your list, however. None of the things you list “produced” the various points you make; the god character did. As for “original sin” that was Adam/Eve not blindly obeying god. Thus, sending his son (or self, if you accept the trinity nonsense) makes no sense (on several levels). It amounts to a necessary sacrifice of himself to himself to keep us all safe from his wrath at Adam & Eve for not obeying him.

That would be like your dad committing suicide to stop himself from being mad at you because you snuck out one night for a date. Just not being mad at you would have sufficed.
Last edited by Koyaanisqatsi on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stupidity is not intellen

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:12 pm

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]I’m not sure “agreement” is the proper question considering most of us are atheists. :D

There are a few nits I’d pick with your list, however. None of the things you list “produced” the various points you make; the god character did. As for “original sin” that was Adam/Eve not blindly obeying god. Thus, sending his son (or self, if you accept the trinity nonsense) makes no sense (on several levels). It amounts to a necessary sacrifice of himself to himself to keep us all safe from his wrath.[/quote]

I was looking for agreement, or not, with my fail verdict.

It is a shame if you guys chased all the theists out of your site. Variety is the spice of life.

I agree with you on that Trinity idiocy and see God as doing the wrong thing in sending his son to die instead of God the father doing the right thing an stepping up himself the way any moral man would do.

I like this presentation on the Trinity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VsN3IG1HtQ

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:12 am

For many years I've asked believers, "How can perfection create imperfection?" Never gotten an answer better than 'it's a mystery...'

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:13 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]For many years I've asked believers, "How can perfection create imperfection?" Never gotten an answer better than 'it's a mystery...'[/quote]

Typical Christian evasion that we all get when speaking to the dimmer and duller minds.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:13 pm

I know of no good answer to that question even from the wisest of Abrahamic theologians.

Hindus, though, will answer that creation *is* perfect, and exactly as Brahma means it to be. Evil and suffering are explained by saying both the agents and the victims of evil are aspects or avatars of Brahma;

If the red slayer thinks he slays
Or the slain thinks he is slain
They know not well the subtle ways
I keep, and pass, and turn again.

praxis
Posts: 3413
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:43 pm

Post by praxis » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:17 am

[quote=""Jobar""]I know of no good answer to that question even from the wisest of Abrahamic theologians.

Hindus, though, will answer that creation *is* perfect, and exactly as Brahma means it to be. Evil and suffering are explained by saying both the agents and the victims of evil are aspects or avatars of Brahma;

If the red slayer thinks he slays
Or the slain thinks he is slain
They know not well the subtle ways
I keep, and pass, and turn again.
[/quote]That's how I would see it if I were a God-believer. I don't know how else it can be summed up by anyone who is a believer and also determined to reach a conclusion. "It's a mystery" sounds like a cop-out, but to me, it's also uniquely American in style and attitude.

Believers project their own frame of reference toward nature and other species onto their God as he/she/it must feel about humanity. Perhaps that's what the "in his own image" means?

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:20 am

[quote=""Jobar""]I know of no good answer to that question even from the wisest of Abrahamic theologians.

Hindus, though, will answer that creation *is* perfect, and exactly as Brahma means it to be. Evil and suffering are explained by saying both the agents and the victims of evil are aspects or avatars of Brahma;

If the red slayer thinks he slays
Or the slain thinks he is slain
They know not well the subtle ways
I keep, and pass, and turn again.
[/quote]

I have no problem in thinking that the world is the best if can be at this point in time as it is the only world it can be given our history and entropy, but that has nothing to do with religion.

I call our world evolving perfection.

That last line you quoted is more gibberish than English.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:56 pm

Don't you recognize that? It's from Ralph Waldo Emerson's Brahma. Quite a famous poem.

They reckon ill who leave me out;
When me they fly, I am the wings;
I am the doubter and the doubt;
And I the hymn the Brahmin sings.

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:37 pm

The most annoying thing (for me) about all of this is that it reflects a kernel of truth about the universe—that “it” is always seeking balance or stasis (or as sub might put it, the lowest state)—and this intuitive understanding then gets blown way out of proportion and it becomes all about us and how special we are and blessed and blah blah blah self-serving nonsense.

Competent/Incompetent. Yin/Yang. Perpetual balancing.
Image
Stupidity is not intellen

User avatar
Michel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Tønsberg, Norway
Contact:

Post by Michel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:19 pm

This morning, as I went in kitchen to make some coffee, I heard a voice saying: “Good morning!” It was the banana I bought yesterday, that was greeting me.
I answered: “Good morning!”
- “What are you doing?”
- “As you can see, I go in the kitchen to make coffee.”
- “What? Go? See? What are you talking about? I can’t walk nor see! What are you made of?”
- “Well … about 60 percent of me is water, then some minerals like, carbon, hydrocarbons and that stuff. I was born and one day, I will die.”
- “That is strange”
said the banana,” I am made of the same stuff, I was also born and when you will eat me, I will die. And we even share about fifty percent of our DNA.”
Then it added
- “And yet, you pretend that you know what, allegedly created both you and me and billions of galaxies, each made of billions of stars and planets. You know if it is competent or not”

dancer_rnb
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:38 pm

Post by dancer_rnb » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:34 pm

My back hurts.......damn competent designer did it deliberately.
There is no such thing as "politically correct." It's code for liberalism. The whole idea of "political correctness" was a brief academic flash-in-the-pan in the early 1990's, but has been a good conservative bugaboo ever since.

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:55 pm

[quote=""Michel""]This morning, as I went in kitchen to make some coffee, I heard a voice saying: “Good morning!” It was the banana I bought yesterday, that was greeting me.
I answered: “Good morning!”
- “What are you doing?”
- “As you can see, I go in the kitchen to make coffee.”
- “What? Go? See? What are you talking about? I can’t walk nor see! What are you made of?”
- “Well … about 60 percent of me is water, then some minerals like, carbon, hydrocarbons and that stuff. I was born and one day, I will die.”
- “That is strange”
said the banana,” I am made of the same stuff, I was also born and when you will eat me, I will die. And we even share about fifty percent of our DNA.”
Then it added
- “And yet, you pretend that you know what, allegedly created both you and me and billions of galaxies, each made of billions of stars and planets. You know if it is competent or not”[/quote]

I imagine Ray Comfort having this discussion with his banana. :D

(Not loaded: BXLqDGL1FSg)
(View video on YouTube)

Or, maybe not. Ray wouldn't know the big words like 'hydrocarbons', or maybe even 'minerals'.

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:26 pm

I'm not sure I would define the senescence of a plant to be quite the same thing as the death of a human. It's kind of an all-or-nothing thing for us, where a plant's status can be in question for a while; if a seed passes through the digestive system and survives the ordeal, it can still sprout and be "reborn" without having been properly dead. Similarly, you can feast on parts of a plant for centuries while the original organism persists, and that organism itself may not have a very well-defined endpoint, sprouting and resprouting from the same nest of rhizomes for millennia. Were a plant to attain consciousness, I doubt it would see death, or speak of it, in a similar fashion to us.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:44 am

[quote=""Jobar""]
Michel;682002 wrote:This morning, as I went in kitchen to make some coffee, I heard a voice saying: “Good morning!” It was the banana I bought yesterday, that was greeting me.
I answered: “Good morning!”
- “What are you doing?”
- “As you can see, I go in the kitchen to make coffee.”
- “What? Go? See? What are you talking about? I can’t walk nor see! What are you made of?”
- “Well … about 60 percent of me is water, then some minerals like, carbon, hydrocarbons and that stuff. I was born and one day, I will die.”
- “That is strange”
said the banana,” I am made of the same stuff, I was also born and when you will eat me, I will die. And we even share about fifty percent of our DNA.”
Then it added
- “And yet, you pretend that you know what, allegedly created both you and me and billions of galaxies, each made of billions of stars and planets. You know if it is competent or not”
I imagine Ray Comfort having this discussion with his banana. :D

(Not loaded: BXLqDGL1FSg)
(View video on YouTube)

Or, maybe not. Ray wouldn't know the big words like 'hydrocarbons', or maybe even 'minerals'.[/QUOTE]
Not only does he not have a god, he doesn't have any bananas either.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:27 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]Don't you recognize that? It's from Ralph Waldo Emerson's Brahma. Quite a famous poem.

They reckon ill who leave me out;
When me they fly, I am the wings;
I am the doubter and the doubt;
And I the hymn the Brahmin sings.
[/quote]

No.

Most of my education was in French.

Poetry has never been my forte.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:33 pm

[quote=""Michel""]This morning, as I went in kitchen to make some coffee, I heard a voice saying: “Good morning!” It was the banana I bought yesterday, that was greeting me.
I answered: “Good morning!”
- “What are you doing?”
- “As you can see, I go in the kitchen to make coffee.”
- “What? Go? See? What are you talking about? I can’t walk nor see! What are you made of?”
- “Well … about 60 percent of me is water, then some minerals like, carbon, hydrocarbons and that stuff. I was born and one day, I will die.”
- “That is strange”
said the banana,” I am made of the same stuff, I was also born and when you will eat me, I will die. And we even share about fifty percent of our DNA.”
Then it added
- “And yet, you pretend that you know what, allegedly created both you and me and billions of galaxies, each made of billions of stars and planets. You know if it is competent or not”[/quote]

You speak of reality. I speak of God that are not real.

Yes, I know if God has been shown to be competent or not.

Can't you decide?

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Michel
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am
Location: Tønsberg, Norway
Contact:

Post by Michel » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:48 pm

[quote=""Greatest I am""]Can't you decide?[/quote]

... moi li pas comprendre, bwana! ;-)

Siempre
Posts: 2737
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:45 pm

Post by Siempre » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:53 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]For many years I've asked believers, "How can perfection create imperfection?" Never gotten an answer better than 'it's a mystery...'[/quote]

Wouldn't perfection actually be imperfection? At least from our perspective.

Think about it. We would basically be robots without the true ability to deviate from our programming. Otherwise we would start disagreeing with each other, etc. And that leads us right back to where we are now.

That said, if there was a God then he could have at least made us less fragile/with fewer "mechanical" issues. Also, if he was all powerful then why not just sit back and leave us be? Most agree we have our own internal methods of learning right from wrong. So, why dump all these rules on us? Wouldn't we figure it all out for ourselves... if we were made correctly? For that matter, why are there rules most of us actually disagree with? Also, wouldn't providing these rules and expecting us to blindly follow them take us full circle to my original point? All you end up with are robots that are unable to think for themselves/deviate from their programming... aka, theists.

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:25 pm

The only possible way that we aren’t “robots” to any such god would be if (a) said god was not “all knowing” and (b) said god was more like a scientist that accidentally knocked one of a thousand different Petri dishes over and our universe accidentally started as a result.

IOW, it had absolutely no idea what it had done or that we existed; it wasn’t any kind of special being; it has no plan or vested interest in our existence; it isn’t actually a “god” it is more properly referred to as a scientist and therefore should not be worshipped or venerated in the manner we have seen mankind do for thousands of years; etc., etc., etc.

In short, just some guy (or gal)—among many others—who tripped in the lab one day and boom, us.

Or, we can be generous and say they didn’t accidentally trip; they purposefully mixed one part X with one part Y and thought maybe they would know the outcome so they were testing their theory, but had no real understanding and were just as amazed as we are that we developed, assuming they live billions upon billions of years and had any way of watching our development among the trillions upon trillions of star systems they inadvertently or hopefully set into evolutionary movement.

Again, however, just some guy—among many others—with no special powers and therefore no more worthy of worship than, say, Jonas Salk or the like. Thanks for all the polio-free fish, of course, but no cathedrals or thousands of years of man’s inhumanity to man.

And, please, for the love of Jonas, no arguments of equivalency or asinine analogies. No one—NOT ONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING—considers “science” to be a cult or scientists to be worshipped in like manner as cult members do their gods. That is a boorish and pointless strawman that should rightfully kill anyone who tries to use it as a counter-argument.
Last edited by Koyaanisqatsi on Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Stupidity is not intellen

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:08 am

(Not loaded: yqkzfn7H1aQ)
(View video on YouTube)

The singing sucks worse than a Hoover, but the lyrics are pretty funny. :D

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:45 pm

On the idiocy of free will God style.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

Post Reply