Why does the existence or non-existence of god matter?

Discuss atheism, religious apologetics, separation of church & state, theology, comparative religion and scripture.
User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Only thing is, the definition contains "small group". And most religions aren't small. Again, differing only in number of members. Perhaps there should be a new word: gigacult, since there are billions of them.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:37 pm

[quote=""Politesse""]
Roo St. Gallus;683232 wrote:And, a 'cultist' is someone who fervently believes something you don't?
It's the other way round; people who believe in God are all "cultists".[/QUOTE]

Ah. Something I can agree with.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:46 pm

[quote=""Hermit""]Secular schools can be just as deleterious to the mind of a growing child than any other institutions that indoctrinate. They can be crippling too.

On average, religious brainwashing is probably more consistently done and more severe, but the situation is not black and white. Not all religious indoctrination is anything like Jesus Camp.

(Not loaded: 4cVpkzZpDBA)
(View video on YouTube)[/quote]

That song shows my Gnostic Christian aesoteric ecumenist view.

Jesus camp, and all religious indoctrination shows only one of many Gods.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

User avatar
Roo St. Gallus
Posts: 8148
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:32 pm
Location: Cascadia

Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:15 pm

Well, I personally think that Koy is the guru of a conspiracy cult.

:D
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 1939
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Post by Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:23 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Well, I personally think that Koy is the guru of a conspiracy cult.

:D [/quote]

I tend not to brand people and just go by what they put in the post I am answering to.

Regards
DL
God is a cosmic consciousness .
Telepathy the key.
Our next evolution. No choice.

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:13 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Well, I personally think that Koy is the guru of a conspiracy cult.

:D [/quote]

Fair cop.
Stupidity is not intellen

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:19 pm

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]Only thing is, the definition contains "small group".[/quote]

As written by cult members. :D

A cult is always what the other religions are, never the one you’re in. Amazing how that works.
Again, differing only in number of members.
Exactly. The victors write the history (and the definitions) and in this case, particularly, the victors have all been cult members of the world’s largest cult (aka, the Christian cult), which has over 22,000 sects. But the truly defining quality, of course, is how they indoctrinate/brainwash their members.

A spectrum to be sure, but fundamentally all the same process.
Stupidity is not intellen

User avatar
Roo St. Gallus
Posts: 8148
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:32 pm
Location: Cascadia

Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:06 am

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]
A cult is always what the other religions are, never the one you’re in. Amazing how that works.

[/quote]

That's the admission I was expecting. Thank you, Koy.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:23 am

Image

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:11 am

I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 6129
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:34 pm

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:15 am

[quote=""Politesse""]I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.[/quote]What is the right lesson? Is something wrong with that diagram? I'm willing to learn.

Koyaanisqatsi
Posts: 8403
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:31 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Koyaanisqatsi;683284 wrote: A cult is always what the other religions are, never the one you’re in. Amazing how that works.
That's the admission I was expecting. Thank you, Koy.[/QUOTE]

That’s the equivocation fallacy I was expecting. Thank you, Roo.
Stupidity is not intellen

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:57 pm

[quote=""Politesse""]I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.[/quote]

I posted that mostly as a joke, but like Hermit, I'd be interested in hearing your interpretation of it.

User avatar
Roo St. Gallus
Posts: 8148
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:32 pm
Location: Cascadia

Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:52 pm

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]
Roo St. Gallus;683285 wrote:
Koyaanisqatsi;683284 wrote: A cult is always what the other religions are, never the one you’re in. Amazing how that works.
That's the admission I was expecting. Thank you, Koy.
That’s the equivocation fallacy I was expecting. Thank you, Roo.[/QUOTE]

And I wouldn't expect you to be any less phallic about it.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:04 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]I posted that mostly as a joke[/quote]
I love it, because joke or not, it's a graphic representation of exactly what I said. if you don't pay attention to number of members (which the graph doesn't), cults and religions are identical.

It shows different reactions from the outside, but that has nothing to do with the nature of the cults themselves.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:53 pm

[quote=""Hermit""]
Politesse;683302 wrote:I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.
What is the right lesson? Is something wrong with that diagram? I'm willing to learn.[/QUOTE]

The distinction between religion and cult is connotational rather than functional. I think we agree on this much. But perhaps not on the degree to which we should indulge in negative connotations.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:22 pm

The people who use negative terms feel they are justified, and those they apply to do not. People who are in prison probably don't like "criminal" or "felon" either.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:59 am

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]The people who use negative terms feel they are justified, and those they apply to do not. People who are in prison probably don't like "criminal" or "felon" either.[/quote]

Well, I'd be with them on that, too. Lazy pejoratives are not something the wise indulge in carelessly in my opinion. Terms like "felon" erase all sense of scale with respect to crime, and encourage people to think of the entire prison population as dangerous thugs not worthy of concern, which in turn encourages abuse of prisoners and a lack of public support for penitentiary reforms.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 6129
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:34 pm

Post by Hermit » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:42 am

[quote=""Politesse""]
Hermit;683304 wrote:
Politesse;683302 wrote:I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.
What is the right lesson? Is something wrong with that diagram? I'm willing to learn.
The distinction between religion and cult is connotational rather than functional. I think we agree on this much. But perhaps not on the degree to which we should indulge in negative connotations.[/QUOTE]Would you unpack that for me, please?

User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:29 am

[quote=""Politesse""]
Jackrabbit;683328 wrote:The people who use negative terms feel they are justified, and those they apply to do not. People who are in prison probably don't like "criminal" or "felon" either.
Well, I'd be with them on that, too. Lazy pejoratives are not something the wise indulge in carelessly in my opinion. Terms like "felon" erase all sense of scale with respect to crime, and encourage people to think of the entire prison population as dangerous thugs not worthy of concern, which in turn encourages abuse of prisoners and a lack of public support for penitentiary reforms.[/QUOTE]
Felon is not a valid term for someone who committed a felony? It in fact does have to do with the scale of the crime, in that they committed a felony. I'm not an expert on incarceration, but I think misdemeanors go to county jail rather than prison.

What term would you use for someone in prison? Involuntary guest of the state for reasons unknown?
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:11 am

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]
Politesse;683329 wrote:
Jackrabbit;683328 wrote:The people who use negative terms feel they are justified, and those they apply to do not. People who are in prison probably don't like "criminal" or "felon" either.
Well, I'd be with them on that, too. Lazy pejoratives are not something the wise indulge in carelessly in my opinion. Terms like "felon" erase all sense of scale with respect to crime, and encourage people to think of the entire prison population as dangerous thugs not worthy of concern, which in turn encourages abuse of prisoners and a lack of public support for penitentiary reforms.
Felon is not a valid term for someone who committed a felony? It in fact does have to do with the scale of the crime, in that they committed a felony. I'm not an expert on incarceration, but I think misdemeanors go to county jail rather than prison.

What term would you use for someone in prison? Involuntary guest of the state for reasons unknown?[/QUOTE]
Lawyer, are you?
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
Jackrabbit
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am
Location: City Dump

Post by Jackrabbit » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:03 am

[quote=""Politesse""]
Jackrabbit;683333 wrote:
Politesse;683329 wrote:
Jackrabbit;683328 wrote:The people who use negative terms feel they are justified, and those they apply to do not. People who are in prison probably don't like "criminal" or "felon" either.
Well, I'd be with them on that, too. Lazy pejoratives are not something the wise indulge in carelessly in my opinion. Terms like "felon" erase all sense of scale with respect to crime, and encourage people to think of the entire prison population as dangerous thugs not worthy of concern, which in turn encourages abuse of prisoners and a lack of public support for penitentiary reforms.
Felon is not a valid term for someone who committed a felony? It in fact does have to do with the scale of the crime, in that they committed a felony. I'm not an expert on incarceration, but I think misdemeanors go to county jail rather than prison.

What term would you use for someone in prison? Involuntary guest of the state for reasons unknown?
Lawyer, are you?[/QUOTE]
I didn't ask what the term should be for me. I asked what the term should be for them.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 6129
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:34 pm

Post by Hermit » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:29 am

[quote=""Hermit""]
Politesse;683323 wrote:
Hermit;683304 wrote:
Politesse;683302 wrote:I feel like you are learning the wrong lesson from that diagram. :o

But I suppose our own prejudices are always the hardest to see clearly.
What is the right lesson? Is something wrong with that diagram? I'm willing to learn.
The distinction between religion and cult is connotational rather than functional. I think we agree on this much. But perhaps not on the degree to which we should indulge in negative connotations.
Would you unpack that for me, please?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, got it now. You are right - the distinction between religion and cult is connotational rather than functional. That's why the aspect religions and cults share is so prominent in that Venn diagram.

Now I wonder what the wrong lesson might be.

Post Reply