What determines the harassment in sexual harassment episodes?

Discuss philosophical concepts and moral issues.
Koyaanisqatsi
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Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:13 pm

It doesn’t matter what you would want (or not want). In the general sense, I’m not pointing to any particular individual. The only thing that matters is what the person you might be interacting with wants (or does not want). That’s why all this “whataboutism” that is currently flooding my social media in regard to the depressingly large numbers of #metoo’s drives me crazy.

A good friend of mine actually posted (in regard to Louis C.K.), “If a woman—even an ugly one—asked if I wanted to watch her masturbate, I’d be totally fine with that.” So I asked, “Ok, but what if she asked if she could ram a broomstick up your ass and then took your shocked silence as consent and then did exactly that?”

The point being, of course, that to imagine what the other person is going through, you can’t first think of something you would enjoy; you have to think of something you wouldn’t want to happen to you and then imagine that happening to you, as that is the situation. The particular details aren’t the relevant factor.
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justme
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Post by justme » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:19 pm

I WANT TO APOLOGIZE FOR MY PREVIOUS POST. IT WAS A RANT THAT I WISH I COULD DELETE,

Has anyone ever thought that many of these people who do this are males who were inadequate to the competitive nature of masculinity when in school and have harbored internal resentment for not being what they thought they should have be during that time.

Maybe they are so vindictive on the rest of society that they abuse those people they think they can and in some dark little corner of their minds they achieve satisfaction from demeaning others.

I look at womanizers with disgust, but it seems to me that they are more interested in the number of women they can bamboozle into thinking they matter to him. It's nothing but a scorecard to these insects, but people like Weinstein are a different breed altogether. From the disgusting things I've heard women tell about his antics suggest to me more than just a sexual thing. This guy had fantasies and that to me is much more dangerous since you really don't know how deep these fantasies go.

This guy is sick, but was he always sick or did he become that way through looking out at life through a dark place crawled in to hide from the rest of the world.

I'm not making excuses for this insect, but I am saying there might be a cause above and beyond the typical answer of him just being drunk with power.

We need to look into this as this might have been the thing that created so many crazies, like Jeffery Dalmer and the like.

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ruby sparks
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Post by ruby sparks » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 pm

I reckon a lot of the explanation is relatively simple, evolved, human, male biology. Ditto for the male aggression that keeps erupting all around the world, in private relationships and international politics.

The male 'strategy' is to seed as many eggs as possible. Females are more guarded. They have to be, the result of fertilisation is hugely more expensive for them in terms of resources. Thus, the human female finds herself wanting and having to repel advances and using other means of control (including evolving a deeper vagina).

I hear there is a species of sea anemone where the males are essentially no more than tiny packets of sperm that live in pouches on the external sides of the much larger female and only get out to play when it suits her. I'm not sure what the sexual harassment scenarios are for them.

And before anyone suggests that I'm saying men's urges can't or shouldn't be controlled, I'm not, obviously. I might call that a stage 2 consideration.
Last edited by ruby sparks on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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ruby sparks
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Post by ruby sparks » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:27 pm

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]It doesn’t matter what you would want (or not want). In the general sense, I’m not pointing to any particular individual. The only thing that matters is what the person you might be interacting with wants (or does not want). That’s why all this “whataboutism” that is currently flooding my social media in regard to the depressingly large numbers of #metoo’s drives me crazy.

A good friend of mine actually posted (in regard to Louis C.K.), “If a woman—even an ugly one—asked if I wanted to watch her masturbate, I’d be totally fine with that.” So I asked, “Ok, but what if she asked if she could ram a broomstick up your ass and then took your shocked silence as consent and then did exactly that?”

The point being, of course, that to imagine what the other person is going through, you can’t first think of something you would enjoy; you have to think of something you wouldn’t want to happen to you and then imagine that happening to you, as that is the situation. The particular details aren’t the relevant factor.[/quote]

Good point, imo. I think this is part of the problem. Men often tend to assume that women want sex as much as they do. I reckon this is partly due to them being blind to the evolved, biological differences.

Or if not blind then cheeky. Maybe it's worth taking a shot. It's a form of wooing after all, just a clumsy one. At some point, some female might let you. 99 rebuffs in 100 attempts is still a win. Grab as many pussies as you can, maybe one of them will get wet. In a way, you have to begrudgingly admire George Bush Senior for still going for it at his age and in his condition given that in his case it's more of a triumph of hope and imagination over intelligence and ability.

I think your suggestion to imagine something you don't want to happen is a good one, then it's easier to put oneself in the mental position of the other. The broomstick rammed all the way up my ass image works in that way for me. I'm not going to lie and say that a well-lubricated and pleasantly warm broomstick pushed gently up my ass just a little bit works in the same way, but I'm guessing you weren't talking about that.

Oddly enough, imagining it's Dianne Abbot propositioning me (in the normal, non-broomstick way) works quite well too.

Image

As, incidentally, does an image of Jeremy Corbyn. In fact, as a straight man, imagining a man coming on to me is quite a good one generally.
Last edited by ruby sparks on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:08 am, edited 14 times in total.

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Ozymandias
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Post by Ozymandias » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:52 pm

[quote=""Koyaanisqatsi""]
A good friend of mine actually posted (in regard to Louis C.K.), “If a woman—even an ugly one—asked if I wanted to watch her masturbate, I’d be totally fine with that.” So I asked, “Ok, but what if she asked if she could ram a broomstick up your ass and then took your shocked silence as consent and then did exactly that?”

The point being, of course, that to imagine what the other person is going through, you can’t first think of something you would enjoy; you have to think of something you wouldn’t want to happen to you and then imagine that happening to you, as that is the situation. The particular details aren’t the relevant factor.[/quote]

Obviously I don't know your friend, but wasn't that why he qualified an "ugly one"? That is, he would not actually like the woman to do this, but he would not be offended by her asking.

However, a better objection is that Weinstein was in a position of authority over his victims. If he weren't, then the victim can verbalise her disgust and move on. But his victims potentially relied on him for career advancement. I think it is really that fact that makes his actions inexcusable. He wasn't just "taking a shot" (as ruby put it) - he was putting his subordinates in a difficult and threatening situation.

Incidentally, this is also true for women in positions of responsibility. The oft cited fact that men are often in no physical danger from women is besides the point. The bigger issue (in "civilised" society at least) is whether or not the person has authority over you.

Koyaanisqatsi
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Post by Koyaanisqatsi » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:30 pm

Well, “power” might be a better term than “authority” as many rapists don’t even know their victims. So, any situation where you feel powerless to stop what’s being inflicted upon you would be inexcusable. Whether that powerlessness is the result of physical threat or fear of losing a job, etc, is not particularly relevant imo.
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BWE
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Post by BWE » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:12 am

[quote=""subsymbolic""]
BWE;680246 wrote:
Ozymandias;679760 wrote:Harassment is really just where one person makes the other feel uncomfortable in a work context. That can be sexual but needn't always be. I was once accused of "harassment" for making a student solve a physics problem on the chalk board in front of her peers.

I occasionally have to take a refresher course on harassment (i.e. how to recognise it and avoid it). I was surprised in my most recent one to find out that a student asking a fellow student out for a drink at the pub is considered harassment if done while in class. The reasoning here is that the "victim" can't avoid the questioner without leaving the class.

I am also aware that I have become much more reserved when interacting with students in recent years. Any time they want to ask me a question in my office, I make sure the door stays wide open. I never ask personal questions and I am very careful to only direct positive feedback at the actual work done and not the student him- or herself. If a student comes to me to ask advice on a personal matter I inform them that I am not qualified to give them advice on non-scientific matters and refer them to the student advice centre.

I have also switched away from using the university gym (which is actually very good and much cheaper than private gyms) because I would be uncomfortable meeting students there.

I never go to parties or social events which are likely to have people from work (either students or staff). I have even left a party when a student that I was teaching turned up unexpectedly.
I met a former student at a pot store. She was working behind the counter. That was one of those really weird episodes life gives.
Were the pots half price?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhJMdmj3Y0

Bwahahahaha[/QUOTE]

Heh. I'm sure they had sales on something. I only saw pot though. No pots. See Aristotle's metaphysics, probably book V for more detail on the distinction. :)

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Tharmas
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Post by Tharmas » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:17 am

[quote=""BWE""]
subsymbolic;680254 wrote:
BWE;680246 wrote:
I met a former student at a pot store. She was working behind the counter. That was one of those really weird episodes life gives.
Were the pots half price?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhJMdmj3Y0

Bwahahahaha
Heh. I'm sure they had sales on something. I only saw pot though. No pots. See Aristotle's metaphysics, probably book V for more detail on the distinction. :) [/QUOTE]
That reminds me of a story that happened to me years ago when I was a graduate student/TA and pot was illegal everywhere, even for medicinal purposes. That meant all transactions were clandestine and criminal.

I was given a contact number that was supposed to be very safe, called and arranged a meeting. It turned out to be a former student of mine. I spent a few minutes trying to remember what grade I had given him and wondering if he was going to screw me.

Well, it turns out I had given him an A and he thought I was one of the best teachers he'd had. He's even switched majors from History to English because of me, he said. So we became friends, although he never warmed up to using my first name. I was always "Mr Tharmas."

These days there's so much wrong and illegal with that situation it's hard to believe I allowed it to happen, but those were certainly different times.

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Politesse
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Post by Politesse » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:19 am

[quote=""Tharmas""]Well, it turns out I had given him an A and he thought I was one of the best teachers he'd had. He's even switched majors from History to English because of me, he said. So we became friends, although he never warmed up to using my first name. I was always "Mr Tharmas." [/quote]Thank god you talked him into a more practical major, there's no jobs in History.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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