Atheists and Death

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Wizofoz
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Post by Wizofoz » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:32 pm

[quote=""Here Rests A Cemetery""]
Wizofoz;655575 wrote:
Here Rests A Cemetery;655566 wrote:
Jackrabbit;655230 wrote:It always pisses me off when biblebangers claim that atheists "fear death".

Uh, excuse me, but we aren't the ones who fabricated a fantasy never-never-land "afterlife" to delude ourselves into thinking we "defeated" death.

.
Couldn't have worded it better myself.

But: me personally, I'm terrified of not existing. Not necessarily death, but I, as a person, will be gone forever. Maybe I sound naive, maybe I sound stupid, but it's something I've struggled to wrap my head around since I was young. (My username may indicate this...)
Was it a terrifying experience not existing before you were conceived?
One day I would exist though. It's a more comforting thought than being gone permanently- in the blink of an eye really, when you look at the grand scope of things.[/QUOTE]

Well, that's the deal. You're here, then you're not- so enjoy being here!!
When it comes to truth, there is no "Opposing opinion"

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Aupmanyav
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Post by Aupmanyav » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:30 pm

[quote=""Here Rests A Cemetery""]One day I would exist though. It's a more comforting thought than being gone permanently- in the blink of an eye really, when you look at the grand scope of things.[/quote]You won't go anywhere. What constitutes you will still be here, only the form will change.
'Sarve khalu idam Brahma'
All things here are Brahman (physical energy).

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Wizofoz
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Post by Wizofoz » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:17 pm

[quote=""Aupmanyav""]
Here Rests A Cemetery;655578 wrote:One day I would exist though. It's a more comforting thought than being gone permanently- in the blink of an eye really, when you look at the grand scope of things.
You won't go anywhere. What constitutes you will still be here, only the form will change.[/QUOTE]

Evidence?
When it comes to truth, there is no "Opposing opinion"

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Aupmanyav
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Post by Aupmanyav » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:39 am

My atoms will remain on earth. But if you forget atoms and see energy, then there is constant going or coming. Or perhaps there is no going or coming, only the crest and the trough of the wave.

Image
'Sarve khalu idam Brahma'
All things here are Brahman (physical energy).

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Jackrabbit
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Post by Jackrabbit » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:48 am

My mind is what constitutes me and that will dissipate when the brain cells stop their operation. There may be atoms, but they won't have anything to do with "me".
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

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lpetrich
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Post by lpetrich » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:14 am

[quote=""Ozymandias""]
lpetrich;655288 wrote: But is the Xian Heaven really looking forward to? Forever and ever and ever wearing white robes and singing hymns of praise to some egomaniac narcissistic deity who makes Donald Trump seem self-abnegating?
Is it really necessary to ascribe made-up beliefs to others in order to affirm your own word-view? This is not the typical Christian view of heaven.[/QUOTE]
Then what is?

What I described is what I find in the Book of Revelation.

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Post by Arpie » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:17 am

[quote=""lpetrich""]
Ozymandias;655314 wrote:
lpetrich;655288 wrote: But is the Xian Heaven really looking forward to? Forever and ever and ever wearing white robes and singing hymns of praise to some egomaniac narcissistic deity who makes Donald Trump seem self-abnegating?
Is it really necessary to ascribe made-up beliefs to others in order to affirm your own word-view? This is not the typical Christian view of heaven.
Then what is?

What I described is what I find in the Book of Revelation.[/QUOTE]

I'd also like to read Ozy's perspective on what the "typical christian view of heaven" is. Hate to keep bringing up Asimov's "The Last Answer" but for me it explains how eternal life would eventually become hell under any conditions.

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Wizofoz
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Post by Wizofoz » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:19 am

[quote=""Aupmanyav""]My atoms will remain on earth. But if you forget atoms and see energy, then there is constant going or coming. Or perhaps there is no going or coming, only the crest and the trough of the wave.

Image[/quote]

Then what constitutes you is no more than what constitutes a big mac- I think a little more of myself.
When it comes to truth, there is no "Opposing opinion"

sohy
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Post by sohy » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:03 pm

Here's what I was taught about heaven when I was growing up in a Christian home. Some words from the popular hymn, "Amazing Grace."

When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise then when we first begun.

When you give that some thought, it sounds like hell. But, I don't think the people in my childhood church ever gave it much thought.

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Jackrabbit
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Post by Jackrabbit » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:11 pm

Yeah, that's the way I've always looked at it. I hated doing all the praising and singing in church. It was boring as fuck. All I can say about it is that it wasn't as boring as the sermon. But doing it forever would be hell. Anyone who wants that is fucked in the head. Or more precisely, hasn't really thought about what eternity means. They say the "ten thousand years" line and don't really think it through.

It's like when couples say "together forever". Uh, I get the sentiment, but no one has ever lived together forever. How do you know you'll like it? Even some couples who have just been together a long time wind up hating each other, and stay together for other reasons.
Last edited by Jackrabbit on Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Aupmanyav
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Post by Aupmanyav » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:20 pm

[quote=""Wizofoz""]Then what constitutes you is no more than what constitutes a big mac- I think a little more of myself.[/quote]You are welcome to your views. :)
'Sarve khalu idam Brahma'
All things here are Brahman (physical energy).

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pobblebonk
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Post by pobblebonk » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:12 am

[quote=""Here Rests A Cemetery""]
Wizofoz;655575 wrote:
Here Rests A Cemetery;655566 wrote:
Couldn't have worded it better myself.
But: me personally, I'm terrified of not existing. Not necessarily death, but I, as a person, will be gone forever. Maybe I sound naive, maybe I sound stupid, but it's something I've struggled to wrap my head around since I was young. (My username may indicate this...)
Was it a terrifying experience not existing before you were conceived?
One day I would exist though. It's a more comforting thought than being gone permanently- in the blink of an eye really, when you look at the grand scope of things.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but even though you would eventually exist....you didn't know that because you didn't exist yet. So being dead is just like before you were born.

I understand how you feel. I'm not terrified at the thought of not existing, but it is a little unnerving to me.

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Aupmanyav
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Post by Aupmanyav » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:56 am

Timing is of utmost important. If I live till feb., I will be able to celebrate the golden jubilee of our marriage. If I live for another five years, I may see the marriage of my grand daughter, if live for 10 more years, my younger grandson will be of an age to remember me, if I live for 15 more years, I can perhaps see the marriage of my elder grandson and perhaps one or two great grand sons or daughters. The big and small small happiness of life, what else anyone wants from life? :)
'Sarve khalu idam Brahma'
All things here are Brahman (physical energy).

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Tubby
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Post by Tubby » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:59 pm

[quote=""sohy""]When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise then when we first begun.

When you give that some thought, it sounds like hell. [/quote]

I once pointed out to a Christian blogger that praising a deity an infinite number of times would bring incredible boredom to a flesh & blood human. For it not to be boring in heaven means that believers are wired fundamentally differently in the afterlife. But that means the entity being rewarded with heaven is not the same entity that "earned the reward." It's like Tim winning a footrace and the judges giving the medal to Phil. What's the fairness or purpose in that?

The blogger never conceded that I had a valid concern, naturally.

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pobblebonk
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Post by pobblebonk » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:29 pm

[quote=""Tubby""]
sohy;655672 wrote:When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise then when we first begun.

When you give that some thought, it sounds like hell.
I once pointed out to a Christian blogger that praising a deity an infinite number of times would bring incredible boredom to a flesh & blood human. For it not to be boring in heaven means that believers are wired fundamentally differently in the afterlife. But that means the entity being rewarded with heaven is not the same entity that "earned the reward." It's like Tim winning a footrace and the judges giving the medal to Phil. What's the fairness or purpose in that?

The blogger never conceded that I had a valid concern, naturally.[/QUOTE]

I think the mainstream view of Heaven is that you get to have everything you love and be happy all the time. Just like the mainstream view of prayer is that God is there to listen and possibly give you what you ask for.

Those people who actually study the Bible and live by it (fundamentalists) know that the alleged purpose of Heaven and prayer is to praise God. It's not about you at all.
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Jackrabbit
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Post by Jackrabbit » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:56 pm

Not to mention that it's incomprehensible that the deity wouldn't get bored with it. After the first hundred years, I'd tell the annoying little shits to shut the fuck up.

Why he would have ever gotten off on it in the first place? Why would it mean anything? Why would he give a fuck about praise when they were alive?

It's like having an ant farm and wanting each individual ant to pay homage. Multiplied by an immense order of magnitude.

Thinking and religion are mutually exclusive.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

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Jackrabbit
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Post by Jackrabbit » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:06 pm

Also, one thing I learned in the military is that the officers least deserving of respect were the most likely to demand it. Mainly because the good officers got it automatically.

There's a story about Eisenhower: on some battlefield, at night, a soldier asked him "hey, buddy, got a light?", not realizing who he was talking to. The man apologized profusely for the familiarity when he did recognize the general.

"It's okay, Corporal. You're just lucky I wasn't a Second Lieutenant."

Maybe true, maybe not, but illustrates the point.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

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pobblebonk
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Post by pobblebonk » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:19 pm

[quote=""Jackrabbit""]Also, one thing I learned in the military is that the officers least deserving of respect were the most likely to demand it. Mainly because the good officers got it automatically.[/quote]

My experience, as well. Same with senior enlisted.
256 shades of grey

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Wizofoz
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Post by Wizofoz » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:23 pm

[quote=""Aupmanyav""]Timing is of utmost important. If I live till feb., I will be able to celebrate the golden jubilee of our marriage. If I live for another five years, I may see the marriage of my grand daughter, if live for 10 more years, my younger grandson will be of an age to remember me, if I live for 15 more years, I can perhaps see the marriage of my elder grandson and perhaps one or two great grand sons or daughters. The big and small small happiness of life, what else anyone wants from life? :) [/quote]

Exactley- and if you die before these things, you won't see them because you won't exist- even if the matter that currently shapes you does.
When it comes to truth, there is no "Opposing opinion"

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Ozymandias
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Post by Ozymandias » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:57 am

I know atheists are typically rather literal and practical, but maybe you guys are taking it a bit far. I don't think these old hymns are literally suggesting that heaven would be full of people in white robes singing praises all day. I agree that would be horrendous, but it is just allegory.

Personally I find the idea of death rather comforting. No matter how shit life gets I know it will end one day. And nothing I do in this world, no fuckup I make, will have any significant consequences a few hundred years from now. In fact, the cosmos is so huge and time so infinite that even if I were to wipe out the human race with some mad scientist experiment (and this may be more likely than you think) it ultimately doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

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Jackrabbit
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Post by Jackrabbit » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:28 pm

Singing in white robes, nonstop sex orgies (my preference), whatever.

But no matter what you do, it will get boring as fuck after ten thousand years, much less 60 trillion. People just don't seem to think about what "eternity" really means. Like Weird Al said in "This is the Life", "You're dead for a real long time."

There would have to be some mechanism to "forget" experiences so you can have new ones. And then what's the point?

Nonexistence is sure as fuck simpler.
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>

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pobblebonk
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Post by pobblebonk » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:05 pm

I hate the "it's just allegory" argument. People use it about the Bible, too.

How do you know which parts to take literally and which parts are allegory? Is the crucifixion just allegory? There's no reason to take any of it seriously if you can't take it all seriously.

(Jackrabbit.... huge Weird Al fan here!)
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Ozymandias
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Post by Ozymandias » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:56 pm

[quote=""pobblebonk""]I hate the "it's just allegory" argument. People use it about the Bible, too.

How do you know which parts to take literally and which parts are allegory? Is the crucifixion just allegory? There's no reason to take any of it seriously if you can't take it all seriously.

(Jackrabbit.... huge Weird Al fan here!)[/quote]

Isn't that true of every book you have ever read? Or do none of your books contain any allegory at all?

I should also note that regarding something as an allegory is not the same as not taking it seriously.

Take Job for example. It is utterly and obviously allegorical, but despite having no factual basis, it contains potentially "useful" instruction on character in the face of adversity. (I realise many here would disagree with its viewpoint, but that doesn't dilute the point.)

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Post by sohy » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:40 pm

I would agree with you Ozy that some Christians of the liberal variety don't take anything in the Bible literally. Those of us who were raised in conservative Christian home were taught that just about everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally, including the story of Job, the endless god praising in the afterlife as well as such ridiculous stories as Jonah and the big fish, Jesus feeding the thousands with 2 fishes and a loaf of bread etc.

Most liberal Christians I've known aren't too sure that there is an afterlife and they certainly don't try to define it.

Now, what about that experiment you're working on that will wipe out the human race? Are you a mad scientist? Should we be worried? :D

It's true that nothing matters in the big scheme of things, but I'm enjoying whatever time I left for now. Death is certainly a comforting thought for me. I've seen too much suffering. I've cared for too many people who welcomed death. When life becomes too painful, death brings a welcome relief.

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ruby sparks
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Post by ruby sparks » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:44 pm

[quote=""Ozymandias""]I know atheists are typically rather literal and practical, but maybe you guys are taking it a bit far. I don't think these old hymns are literally suggesting that heaven would be full of people in white robes singing praises all day. I agree that would be horrendous, but it is just allegory.[/quote]

The verse from amazing grace didn't mention white robes, just constant praising.

I can't see any reason to think that the people who wrote that verse were being allegorical.

That particular verse was not, apparently, written by Clergyman John Newton in 1779 when he wrote the poem, 'Amazing Grace', later to be set to music. That verse was, or so I read, added later and is thought to have been an orally transmitted verse taken from hymns sung by African-American slaves.

I rather think that such hymns were made up by people who really believed that they were describing the paradise that they hoped to get to.

As for descriptions of heaven being allegorical in the New Testament, I also doubt that these were not meant to be taken seriously. I think they were to be taken very seriously and literally. One only has to read the epistles to see that one of the main selling points of the early cult was the actual imminence of the end of the world and the paradise to follow. I really doubt that allegory would have worked, in convincing people to join. You only got to get the eternal reward if you joined in time.

People were being told, promised, that they really were going to cheat death and live forever. You can read in Thessalonians how Paul reassures those who were already, in the middle of the 1st Century, starting to doubt that anything was actually going to happen, because some of them (ie some early Christian converts in the new churches in Thessalonia in this case, now part of Greece) had already died, and there was no sign of the big event.
Last edited by ruby sparks on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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