Going back to God

For help in being a non-believer or campaigning for secularism while beset by believers. If believers post here they should remember that this is a support forum. There is also a members-only subforum.
praxis
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Post by praxis » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:05 pm

[quote=""justme""]
praxis;681691 wrote:
justme;681687 wrote:
subsymbolic;681678 wrote:It's just morbid curiosity, but I distinctly remember you blaming God for having kept you in the closet for so long when you came out as trans. Now you have come out as a Christian, what happens?
What happens is what happens. What kept me in the closet was fear of what would happen., not with God, but those who see they do his bidding. At that time I rejected everything to do with religion and some of that still stands. People have done unspeakable things in his name.
Are you certain God doesn't mind being referred to as a man? You'd think that if there are two labels that would absolutely sicken and anger God and that would be any variant of Satan or Man. Both have thoroughly pissed God off on many occasions.
I use the masculine terms to describe the deity because that is the way he is referanced in the Bible.[/QUOTE]What makes you believe the people who wrote the bible knew God?

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justme
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Post by justme » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:34 pm

[quote=""praxis""]
justme;681728 wrote:
praxis;681691 wrote:
justme;681687 wrote:
What happens is what happens. What kept me in the closet was fear of what would happen., not with God, but those who see they do his bidding. At that time I rejected everything to do with religion and some of that still stands. People have done unspeakable things in his name.
Are you certain God doesn't mind being referred to as a man? You'd think that if there are two labels that would absolutely sicken and anger God and that would be any variant of Satan or Man. Both have thoroughly pissed God off on many occasions.
I use the masculine terms to describe the deity because that is the way he is referanced in the Bible.
What makes you believe the people who wrote the bible knew God?[/QUOTE]

It's a package deal. One can't believe that the God that is described in the Bible without the Bible, because he is introduced to you by that same Bible.

I'm not going to say it works for everyone, but It works for those that believe.

praxis
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Post by praxis » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:49 am

I've often thought that believers are the most derogatory and disrespectful of their God. Reducing God to God's most failed creation (man) is about as disrespectful as it can get. Even though the people who wrote the bible didn't realize this about themselves and their use of language, surely those of you who are the 21st century believers should. Unless none of you have done any thinking beyond the original bunch.

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justme
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Post by justme » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:13 am

[quote=""praxis""]I've often thought that believers are the most derogatory and disrespectful of their God. Reducing God to God's most failed creation (man) is about as disrespectful as it can get. Even though the people who wrote the bible didn't realize this about themselves and their use of language, surely those of you who are the 21st century believers should. Unless none of you have done any thinking beyond the original bunch.[/quote]

I don't know. What is written is written. Everybody has to deal with what they find infront of them. Maybe It's the actions of God that are most like to ours makes him more presentable or maybe He was made up out of superstition and imbribed with these traits through works of fiction by writers that want to make him more like us.

Who knows for sure. Maybe I had a mental breakdown and the thing that I experienced was nothing more than my minds reaction to a threat posed to it by my own anxiety.

I'm not above examining all prospects in this, but I do have a strong belief that it was what I think it was and came from where I believe it came from.

praxis
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Post by praxis » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:49 am

There's a huge difference between shaking something off (like religion or belief) and leaving it behind by moving forward.

It's difficult to imagine forgetting a parent and their demands while they are still alive and part of one's life, but that becomes easier once they die or move away and retire to Florida or Arizona. One day you look up and say "gee, it's been a long time since...and boy have I changed an awful lot, too".

That's how it happens, but for as long as one tries to make that change, it's like knowing there's chocolate ice cream in the fridge.

Know what I mean?
Last edited by praxis on Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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justme
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Post by justme » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:17 am

[quote=""praxis""]There's a huge difference between shaking something off (like religion or belief) and leaving it behind by moving forward.

It's difficult to imagine forgetting a parent and their demands while they are still alive and part of one's life, but that becomes easier once they die or move away and retire to Florida or Arizona. One day you look up and say "gee, it's been a long time since...and boy, Have I changed an awful lot, too".

That's how it happens, but for as long as one tries to make that change, it's like knowing there's chocolate ice cream in the fridge.

Know what I mean?[/quote]

I know what you mean, but the idea still arrises is what you mean by moving forword when what you've tried for such a long time has brought you no closer to what you desire, which to me is security and a peace of mine.

You could say that the bagadge I carry is what is preventing me from getting somewhere, but you can also argue that a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush.

What is beyond the horizon of change? Is it another disappointment in a long line of disappointments, where you end up feeling just as much of a fool that you've felt like the last 400 before this one.

Does religion work or is it nostalgia for a time in my life that makes me feel safe?

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:05 am

[quote=""justme""]
praxis;681733 wrote: What makes you believe the people who wrote the bible knew God?
It's a package deal. One can't believe that the God that is described in the Bible without the Bible, because he is introduced to you by that same Bible.

I'm not going to say it works for everyone, but It works for those that believe.[/QUOTE]

I hear this repeated a lot. Why would it be a package deal?

The idea of God is not introduced by the Bible. There's literally millions of spiritual accounts and interactions with God, some Christian, others not. Many older than Christianity. I'm sorry, but the idea that the Bible introduced the idea of God is ludicrous. Isn't it more likely that the authors of the Bible had mystical experiences, and did their best to try to formulate it and catch it best they could?

A big reason to see the Bible as just one step on the road of philosophy is because Christian theology is the result of Philo of Alexandria doing his best to combine Greek philosophy with Jewish religion.

The Bible is inspired by that. The very real and non-supernatural origin of the Bible, makes it likely that those who wrote it weren't divinely inspired. They probably got inspiration the way any author would?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

I find that idea that Christians only use the Bible as the source of their faith, absurdly limiting. I understand why they do it. It's just tradition. But it doesn't really make much sense. It's arbitrary. There's also nothing preventing a Christian to letting themselves be influenced by any spiritual tradition.

Why not just be honest about it? You want to belong to a club. That's why you use the Bible. There's no other rational explanation to uphold the Bible beyond any other spiritual work.

When I embarked on my journey to read up on religion I was attracted to Pagan theology. No other religious tradition has been so good at catching the human condition IMHO. I'm guessing, that's why it disappeared. It's not a particularly comforting faith.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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subsymbolic
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Post by subsymbolic » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
justme;681741 wrote:
praxis;681733 wrote: What makes you believe the people who wrote the bible knew God?
It's a package deal. One can't believe that the God that is described in the Bible without the Bible, because he is introduced to you by that same Bible.

I'm not going to say it works for everyone, but It works for those that believe.
I hear this repeated a lot. Why would it be a package deal?

The idea of God is not introduced by the Bible. There's literally millions of spiritual accounts and interactions with God, some Christian, others not. Many older than Christianity. I'm sorry, but the idea that the Bible introduced the idea of God is ludicrous. Isn't it more likely that the authors of the Bible had mystical experiences, and did their best to try to formulate it and catch it best they could?

A big reason to see the Bible as just one step on the road of philosophy is because Christian theology is the result of Philo of Alexandria doing his best to combine Greek philosophy with Jewish religion.

The Bible is inspired by that. The very real and non-supernatural origin of the Bible, makes it likely that those who wrote it weren't divinely inspired. They probably got inspiration the way any author would?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

I find that idea that Christians only use the Bible as the source of their faith, absurdly limiting. I understand why they do it. It's just tradition. But it doesn't really make much sense. It's arbitrary. There's also nothing preventing a Christian to letting themselves be influenced by any spiritual tradition.

Why not just be honest about it? You want to belong to a club. That's why you use the Bible. There's no other rational explanation to uphold the Bible beyond any other spiritual work.

When I embarked on my journey to read up on religion I was attracted to Pagan theology. No other religious tradition has been so good at catching the human condition IMHO. I'm guessing, that's why it disappeared. It's not a particularly comforting faith.[/QUOTE]


Unless, of course, you believe it...

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:28 pm

[quote=""subsymbolic""]
DrZoidberg;681748 wrote:
justme;681741 wrote:
praxis;681733 wrote: What makes you believe the people who wrote the bible knew God?
It's a package deal. One can't believe that the God that is described in the Bible without the Bible, because he is introduced to you by that same Bible.

I'm not going to say it works for everyone, but It works for those that believe.
I hear this repeated a lot. Why would it be a package deal?

The idea of God is not introduced by the Bible. There's literally millions of spiritual accounts and interactions with God, some Christian, others not. Many older than Christianity. I'm sorry, but the idea that the Bible introduced the idea of God is ludicrous. Isn't it more likely that the authors of the Bible had mystical experiences, and did their best to try to formulate it and catch it best they could?

A big reason to see the Bible as just one step on the road of philosophy is because Christian theology is the result of Philo of Alexandria doing his best to combine Greek philosophy with Jewish religion.

The Bible is inspired by that. The very real and non-supernatural origin of the Bible, makes it likely that those who wrote it weren't divinely inspired. They probably got inspiration the way any author would?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

I find that idea that Christians only use the Bible as the source of their faith, absurdly limiting. I understand why they do it. It's just tradition. But it doesn't really make much sense. It's arbitrary. There's also nothing preventing a Christian to letting themselves be influenced by any spiritual tradition.

Why not just be honest about it? You want to belong to a club. That's why you use the Bible. There's no other rational explanation to uphold the Bible beyond any other spiritual work.

When I embarked on my journey to read up on religion I was attracted to Pagan theology. No other religious tradition has been so good at catching the human condition IMHO. I'm guessing, that's why it disappeared. It's not a particularly comforting faith.
Unless, of course, you believe it...[/QUOTE]

Nah. I truly find the Christian elevation of faith disgusting and an insult to the human mind. Because all it means is that we start with deciding the conclusion, and then ignore any evidence that doesn't fit the conclusion. That's find and dandy. But the same people also claim that they care about what is true. Ehe... no they don't. This is people who couldn't give a rats ass about reality.

Either we inspect the evidence and go where they take us, or we don't care about the truth.

Another reason I find it disgusting is because it's so dishonest. I think it's ultimately nothing but a rhetorical trick to shut down criticism and discussion. Martin Luther was clear about why he elevated faith. He was against rational thought and reasoning. He thought it was a path straight to vice and hell. He wanted us to stay ignorant. Which explains what this really is about. Faith is only a virtue who think that ignorance is a virtue. Few things offend me as much.

There's a lot in Christian thought that's horrendous. But luckily, stuff Christians have mostly stopped doing.

Justme comes across as smarter than this. So I highly doubt this is her motivation.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:34 am

Justme, have you ever actually read the whole Bible, cover to cover?

There are good parts of it, certainly. I've always quite liked Ecclesiastes, for example. But most of it is just awful- poor writing, poor ethics, poor philosophy. Just try to plow through Leviticus. Joshua is about as bad. I'd say that much of the New Testament is also badly written, even in the original Greek.

And this is supposed to be 'The Sword of the Spirit Which Is The Word of God!' No way, man. No way.

Take a year or so, and read the whole thing for yourself. Then come back and talk to us about "what is written." I've lost count of how many times, when believers ask me why I left the Christian faith as a teenager, I've told them "I read the Bible." In fact, it's the #1 book other former Christians mention in that context.

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 am

[quote=""Jobar""]Justme, have you ever actually read the whole Bible, cover to cover?

There are good parts of it, certainly. I've always quite liked Ecclesiastes, for example. But most of it is just awful- poor writing, poor ethics, poor philosophy. Just try to plow through Leviticus. Joshua is about as bad. I'd say that much of the New Testament is also badly written, even in the original Greek.

And this is supposed to be 'The Sword of the Spirit Which Is The Word of God!' No way, man. No way.

Take a year or so, and read the whole thing for yourself. Then come back and talk to us about "what is written." I've lost count of how many times, when believers ask me why I left the Christian faith as a teenager, I've told them "I read the Bible." In fact, it's the #1 book other former Christians mention in that context.[/quote]

That's a famous quote from Asimov. He was agnostic until He read the Bible. And he said that the Bible is the best propaganda material written for atheism
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Michel
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Post by Michel » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:42 am

[quote=""Jobar""]Take a year or so, and read the whole thing for yourself. Then come back and talk to us about "what is written."[/quote]

One day, a friend gave me a Norwegian book: "Guds Lille Brun" (God's little brown). The title is to simulate Mao's Little Red book. It shows many experts from the Bible and it was ... horrible!

I thought: No, it can't be! Then I started reading my wife's childhood Bible and ... it was all true! So many horrible stories in the Bible. How about Lot, loosing his wife as God turned her into a statue of salt. Then Lot's daughters felt sorry for him and they got him drunk and both had sex with their father!

Another interesting book is R.Crumb's Moses Genesis. The text is exactly that of the Bible but it is illustrated by Crumb. It is so .... weird! When you read a text, using wishful thinking, you read what you want to read. But when it is illustrated ... you can't avoid understanding the absurdity of the Bible.

Here is about the book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_ ... s_(comics))

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:20 am

[quote=""Michel""]
I thought: No, it can't be! Then I started reading my wife's childhood Bible and ... it was all true! So many horrible stories in the Bible. How about Lot, loosing his wife as God turned her into a statue of salt. Then Lot's daughters felt sorry for him and they got him drunk and both had sex with their father!
[/quote]

Because according to the Bible a wife is the property of her husband, and a daughter is the property of her father. Rape is a crime against the male guardian. Not against the actual victim. This is why Lot is portrayed as such a hero sacrificing himself.

It's funny how Christians today have problems with how Saudi Arabia treats their women. As far as I know, they're the only one's doing it right!
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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