Creationist not allowed to sample the Grand Canyon

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lpetrich
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Creationist not allowed to sample the Grand Canyon

Post by lpetrich » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:32 pm

A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination - The Atlantic
That's Dr. Andrew Snelling.
Last week, Snelling sued park administrators and the Department of Interior, which administers the national parks program, because they would not grant him a permit to collect 50 to 60 fist-sized rocks. All research in the national park is restricted, especially if it requires removing material. But the Grand Canyon does host 80 research projects a year, ranging from archaeology digs to trout tracking.

Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian legal advocacy group that filed the lawsuit on behalf of Snelling, alleged discrimination by the park. “National Park Service: Research in Grand Canyon okay for geologists … but not Christian ones,” read the headline on their press release. (Interior department and NPS spokespeople declined to comment because of the pending litigation.)
Creationist geologist sues U.S. park service after it rejects request to collect samples in Grand Canyon | Science | AAAS
In the suit filed earlier this month, the Australian geologist, Andrew Snelling, says that religious discrimination was behind the National Park Service's (NRS's) decision to deny him a permit to gather samples from four locations in the park. Snelling had hoped to gather the rocks to support the creationist belief that a global flood about 4,300 years ago was responsible for rock layers and fossil deposits around the world.

NPS's actions "demonstrate animus towards the religious viewpoints of Dr. Snelling," the complaint alleges, "and violate Dr. Snelling's free exercise rights by imposing inappropriate and unnecessary religious tests to his access to the park."
He did some work on the Koongarra uranium deposit in Australia's Northern Territory. After that,
From 1998 to 2007, Snelling was a geology expert at the Creation Science Foundation and has since worked for Kentucky-based Answers in Genesis, an organization that investigates geology "from a Biblical perspective."

He's also been an interpreter on more than 30 river trips in the Grand Canyon, which has been a central area of study for creationist geologists.
But there is a very interesting fact about Dr. Snelling. Will the Real Dr Snelling Please Stand Up? Paleontologist Alex Ritchie argues that there seems to be two Drs. Andrew Snelling. They have the same educational qualifications and the same mailing addresses, but they have very different beliefs about the Earth's history, and they seldom or never cite each other's work.

Snelling #1 is a young-earth creationist and a believer in Flood Geology. He believes that Noah's Flood did some major reshaping of the Earth's surface.

Snelling #2 is a mainstream geologist who has published on uranium mineralization in some Proterozoic and older Australian rock formations. He seems to believe that the Earth's surface has been continually reshaped over its history, over a much longer time than Snelling #1 believes that Earth to have existed.

(Wikipedia)Andrew A. Snelling lists publications by both Snellings, and I've found publications by Snelling #2 in Google Scholar.


So it seems that Snelling #1 ought to have asked Snelling #2 about what mainstream geologists would consider a good proposal for sampling the Grand Canyon.


He has responded in Andrew Snelling answers Alex Ritchie
The problem is that these hard-line evolutionists are so blinkered that they can't see how a person like myself in such a situation is forced to use their evolutionary terminology whether we like it or not. In other words, even though I could have appealed to the editor of the monograph it would have been to no avail, because the reviewers would have also insisted on the conventional terminology, particularly as one of the reviewers was one of the researchers having done the standard work on the regional geology of that area. It is ludicrous to suggest any hypocrisy or two-facedness.
:boohoo:

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:06 pm

Wonder what he intended to do with those rocks. Undoubtedly something dumb...

plebian
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Post by plebian » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:52 pm

1. collect 50 or so fist sized rocks from the grand canyon.
2. ??
3. profit.

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Post by lpetrich » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:31 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]Wonder what he intended to do with those rocks. Undoubtedly something dumb...[/quote]
Like some hopelessly specious "demonstration" that they must have been laid down in Noah's Flood.

[quote=""plebian""]1. collect 50 or so fist sized rocks from the grand canyon.
2. ??
3. profit.[/quote]
#2 is likely look for "evidence" of Noah's Flood in them -- AS is a Flood Geologist.

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Post by lpetrich » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:51 pm

As to AS's moaning and groaning that he had to use mainstream-geology timescales and mechanisms, there are some ways out.

Philip Gosse's created-appearance hypothesis. PG believed that the Universe runs in cycles, and thus that the Universe had to have been created in the middle of those cycles. This had the side effect of making the Universe seem much older than it actually us.

But to many people, that hypothesis seems like divine fraudulence.

Another is the doctrine that some medieval philosophers had allegedly believed, the "double truth", separate truths of reason and revelation. Thus, AS #1's position would be the truth of revelation and AS #2's position the truth of reason.

plebian
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Post by plebian » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:55 pm

[quote=""lpetrich""]
Jobar;673462 wrote:Wonder what he intended to do with those rocks. Undoubtedly something dumb...
Like some hopelessly specious "demonstration" that they must have been laid down in Noah's Flood.

[quote=""plebian""]1. collect 50 or so fist sized rocks from the grand canyon.
2. ??
3. profit.[/quote]
#2 is likely look for "evidence" of Noah's Flood in them -- AS is a Flood Geologist.[/QUOTE]

What does it mean to be a "flood geologist"?

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lpetrich
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Post by lpetrich » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:53 pm

[quote=""plebian""]What does it mean to be a "flood geologist"?[/quote]
Someone who believes in flood geology, a version of geology that is popular among young-earth creationists. According to flood geology, Noah's Flood was a big worldwide flood, and it deposited a lot of sediment and otherwise heavily reshaped our planet's surface.

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Post by praxis » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:37 am

[quote=""Jobar""]Wonder what he intended to do with those rocks. Undoubtedly something dumb...[/quote]Stone an adulterer?

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Post by espritch » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:53 pm

[quote=""plebian""]1. collect 50 or so fist sized rocks from the grand canyon.
2. ??
3. profit.[/quote]


Isn't number three supposed to be "Massive profit!"?

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Post by Ozymandias » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:52 pm

I had a conversation recently with someone religious and happened to mention Noah's Ark as "mythology". I was astounded that this person corrected me to claim that it actually happened! I didn't think such people existed any more.

To be fair, I am certain that no-one at the church my wife goes to thinks it was literally true. (Coincidentally, I happened to be chatting with the minister from my wife's church at the gym this morning and mentioned the Noah's Ark incident. We both had a good laugh, so he obviously agrees it is not literally true.)

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Post by subsymbolic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:36 pm

There's a perfectly sound argument that it did happen. Back when Jehovah was still Enlil and Enki, the flood was slightly less floody and was merely a major flood of the Euphrates river with heavy rains that washed The Ark (and Utnapishkin (Noah) all the way from Shuruppak to Dilman (Central Iraq to Bahrain).

Once you start to get location and detail like that, the idea that there was particularly heavy flooding that stuck in people's minds and kicked off some major mythology sounds pretty believable.

They just have to stop exaggerating, because it isn't so hard to prove that this is where the flood that inspired the Bible happened...

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Post by Tubby » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:06 pm

[quote=""Ozymandias""]I had a conversation recently with someone religious and happened to mention Noah's Ark as "mythology". I was astounded that this person corrected me to claim that it actually happened! I didn't think such people existed any more. [/quote]

I know of Christians today who insist Lot's wife actually was turned to stone in the blink of an eye.

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Post by Hermit » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:28 am

Some Christians even go as far as believing that someone who was executed came back to life three days later.

I don't know how many of them consider themselves to be cannibals, though. Catholic dogma about transubstantiation, if true, it means that Catholics at least really are. The fact that the alleged donor of his own flesh and blood encouraged his followers to cannibalise him makes them no less so.

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Post by Worldtraveller » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:09 pm

[quote=""Tubby""]
Ozymandias;676243 wrote:I had a conversation recently with someone religious and happened to mention Noah's Ark as "mythology". I was astounded that this person corrected me to claim that it actually happened! I didn't think such people existed any more.
I know of Christians today who insist Lot's wife actually was turned to stone in the blink of an eye.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was a pillar of salt? Or am I thinking of a different fable? I can't keep them all straight.

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lpetrich
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Post by lpetrich » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:16 am

In that story, she got turned into a pillar of salt.

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