The Case For Israel

Propose a formal or informal debate or discussion in this forum. Declare a challenge/invitation or respond to one.
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Barefoot Bree
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Post by Barefoot Bree » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:16 pm

I have an idea. How about we let them have their discussion, and THEN lob grenades from the peanut gallery as we see fit?
There's no such thing as "political correctness". The phrase you're looking for is "Common Decency".
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columbus
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Post by columbus » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:54 pm

[quote=""Redshirt""]
columbus;246768 wrote: I believe we're agreed on the most informal possible discussion here in the exclusive section. I could start the peanut gallery, although I'm not sure how to do links. I'm pretty net stupid :o

Tom
Don't worry, I'll set up the gallery.

Here are some proposed guidelines for a more flexible informal discussion format:

(1) Topic: "The case for Israel"
(2) Participants: Columbus and cnorman18
(3) Criteria: The discussion will revolve around an assessment of the arguments presented in the book "The Case For Israel", by Alan Dershowitz.

Do you both agree to these parameters? Please confirm and I'll be happy to set up the discussion thread and peanut gallery.[/QUOTE]

I do.

The one thing I would like to see different is the need to have each of our posts approved before it is visible. I understand that is how this usually works and is built into the system. Maybe nothing can be done. What I would like is for posts from Charles and me to be immediately visible. I haven't known Charles long, but we didn't just meet.

If that isn't possible, I would prefer it if we didn't have to wait for one particular mod to approve posts. If all mods knew that a post from either of us was good to approve we could save time. This book is difficult to discuss unless you have it in front of you and I must return it to the library in a couple of weeks.

Other than that one niggly detail I'm ready to go.

Thanks again for everybody's help.

Tom
I am remarkably conservative and judgemental for a queer atheist.

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BWE
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Post by BWE » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:55 pm

if there is only one debate going on the forum permission can be temporarily changed.

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cnorman18
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Post by cnorman18 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:00 am

[quote=""David B""]IIRC it is normal in formal debates for participants to not participate in the peanut gallery at all until the debate is over.

This is slightly different, though I would still prefer the discussion to be for the participants and the peanut gallery to be for non participants, I think Redshirt's views on this should be adopted, whatever they may be.

David[/quote]

That sounds right to me. I'd rather not be distracted by the commentary.

Thanks.
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened."
-- Rabbi William Gershon
"Faith is hope, not fact."
-- Herman Wouk

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columbus
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Post by columbus » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:02 am

[quote=""Full Tilt Boogie""]As an aside, there is one nagging, legitimate concern I have about Dershowitz writing on The Case for Israel - that of impartiality - he being an American vocally pro-Israel Jew - kinda like expecting a Pol Pot-penned case for 'Year Zero' to be impartial. If you've already read any of Dershowitz's other works, e.g. Why Terrorism Works, you'll know what I mean.

Just saying...[/quote]

Oh, trust me.

My OP will address this point. D makes no pretence of being even-handed.

Tom
I am remarkably conservative and judgemental for a queer atheist.

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cnorman18
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Post by cnorman18 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:05 am

[quote=""columbus""]
Redshirt;246783 wrote:
columbus;246768 wrote: I believe we're agreed on the most informal possible discussion here in the exclusive section. I could start the peanut gallery, although I'm not sure how to do links. I'm pretty net stupid :o

Tom
Don't worry, I'll set up the gallery.

Here are some proposed guidelines for a more flexible informal discussion format:

(1) Topic: "The case for Israel"
(2) Participants: Columbus and cnorman18
(3) Criteria: The discussion will revolve around an assessment of the arguments presented in the book "The Case For Israel", by Alan Dershowitz.

Do you both agree to these parameters? Please confirm and I'll be happy to set up the discussion thread and peanut gallery.
I do.

The one thing I would like to see different is the need to have each of our posts approved before it is visible. I understand that is how this usually works and is built into the system. Maybe nothing can be done. What I would like is for posts from Charles and me to be immediately visible. I haven't known Charles long, but we didn't just meet.

If that isn't possible, I would prefer it if we didn't have to wait for one particular mod to approve posts. If all mods knew that a post from either of us was good to approve we could save time. This book is difficult to discuss unless you have it in front of you and I must return it to the library in a couple of weeks.

Other than that one niggly detail I'm ready to go.

Thanks again for everybody's help.

Tom[/QUOTE]

I'm OK with that, either way; speaking for myself, though, I might appreciate another eye looking over my posts before they go up -- I HAVE been known to go over the top from time to time. A suggestion now and then might be in order. I don't expect problems, but one never knows.

Any moderator would be fine with me; perhaps in case of doubt, Redshirt could be notified.

I've been doing Internet forums for a long time, but this is the first time out in this sort of venue for me. I figure, all the guidance I can get...
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened."
-- Rabbi William Gershon
"Faith is hope, not fact."
-- Herman Wouk

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cnorman18
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Post by cnorman18 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:11 am

[quote=""Full Tilt Boogie""]
Honestly mate, after three replies on this now, I find it kinda worrying that you keep trying to pull this into that territory. My concern has nothing to do with what you're suggesting. If you can't understand the imperative or need for impartiality in a discussion about Israel, then, with respect, you've already lost.

There is a certain aspect of intellectual honesty here which concerns me (perhaps because you've not yet explained the content or positions both sides will take in the debate) - you've said that you're going to talk about a book which is written by, on your own admission, an out-on-a-porch pro-Israel author - and given that (as Red Shirt said) in these situations, both sides usually take up opposing positions (for a debate to have any intellectual value) - and if you and Tom are merely going to vigorously agree, then I question the value of it. If that's not the case, then perhaps you need to be clearer as to who's taking what position - as neither have yet said they will be "opposing" the proposition (not that any proposition has been made clear yet).[/quote]

I find it odd that you have brought this issue up three times, myself, and now a fourth.... I thought it was dealt with adequately in my first reply.

I have no doubt that you will see some substantial disagreement between Columbus and myself in the discussion to come -- and I note that he has now dealt with your question about the bias of the author, as well. I suspect that the discussion will speak for itself.

A bit of patience might be in order, as opposed to anticipating problems that have not yet appeared.
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened."
-- Rabbi William Gershon
"Faith is hope, not fact."
-- Herman Wouk

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columbus
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Post by columbus » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:13 am

[quote=""Barefoot Bree""]I have an idea. How about we let them have their discussion, and THEN lob grenades from the peanut gallery as we see fit?[/quote]

That is exactly why Charles and I decided to have our discussion in an exclusive forum. We can separate the discussion from the grenade lobbing.

Anybody can lob a grenade. Destruction is always easier and faster than Construction. Destruction is about immediate gratification, while Construction is about delayed gratification. Construction is much more difficult and requires much more discipline than is normal for this kind of exchange.

Tom
I am remarkably conservative and judgemental for a queer atheist.

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columbus
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Post by columbus » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:36 am

[quote=""cnorman18""]You seem to keep implying that there's something inherently suspect about having an opinion about Israel -- or, more properly, a positive one. Tell me honestly -- would you be this concerned if the title of the book were "The Case Against Israel"?[/quote]

Charles, this is really a peanut gallery sort of post. This thread is about setting up our discussion, not discussing the issues or opinions about the issues. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Let Redshirt start the appropriate threads. In the meantime, kick back. Have a beer. Snuggle with your honey. Have a snack.

Don't start a rancorous debate in a proposal thread. It is simply not done. :)


Tom
I am remarkably conservative and judgemental for a queer atheist.

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:48 am

Yeah, save the rancorous debates for the Peanut Gallery. ;)

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cnorman18
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Post by cnorman18 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:10 am

[quote=""columbus""]
cnorman18;246893 wrote:You seem to keep implying that there's something inherently suspect about having an opinion about Israel -- or, more properly, a positive one. Tell me honestly -- would you be this concerned if the title of the book were "The Case Against Israel"?
Charles, this is really a peanut gallery sort of post. This thread is about setting up our discussion, not discussing the issues or opinions about the issues. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Let Redshirt start the appropriate threads. In the meantime, kick back. Have a beer. Snuggle with your honey. Have a snack.

Don't start a rancorous debate in a proposal thread. It is simply not done. :)


Tom[/QUOTE]

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Or, "But Daddy, HE started it!"

Anyway, point taken. I'll hold my tongue till we start. Though that will make it hard to type...
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened."
-- Rabbi William Gershon
"Faith is hope, not fact."
-- Herman Wouk

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Redshirt
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Post by Redshirt » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:44 am

[quote=""columbus""]
I do.

The one thing I would like to see different is the need to have each of our posts approved before it is visible. I understand that is how this usually works and is built into the system. Maybe nothing can be done. What I would like is for posts from Charles and me to be immediately visible. I haven't known Charles long, but we didn't just meet.

If that isn't possible, I would prefer it if we didn't have to wait for one particular mod to approve posts. If all mods knew that a post from either of us was good to approve we could save time. This book is difficult to discuss unless you have it in front of you and I must return it to the library in a couple of weeks.

Other than that one niggly detail I'm ready to go.

Thanks again for everybody's help.

Tom[/quote]

Fair enough, I'll get the thread set up. Don't worry about having post moderated. For informal discussions like this, we'll place you and cnorman into a special usergroup. Only you and cnorman can participate in that thread (other than mods, for official purposes) and your posts won't need any clearance. I'll notify Loren and request that he make the changes.

This thread will now be closed.

ETA: the discussion thread is now set up here.
Last edited by Redshirt on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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