Free will

Propose a formal or informal debate or discussion in this forum. Declare a challenge/invitation or respond to one.
Locked
User avatar
DMB
Posts: 41484
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:13 pm
Location: Mostly Switzerland

Free will

Post by DMB » Tue May 24, 2011 9:35 am

[staffnote]This thread is purely to agree a debate. It is not for discussing your ideas about free will. For that please go to this thread in the Philosophy and Morality forum.

Toker would like a debate on whether free will exists or not. He will post here to state what position he wants to uphold.

Please don't post here unless you would like to participate in this debate under formal rules with toker.

If the debate takes place, I will open a peanut gallery where everyone except the participants will be free to comment on the progress of the debate.
[/staffnote]

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Wed May 25, 2011 1:05 pm

I say we have free will. There are several positions that disagree. Some of them may be worth exploring.

User avatar
columbus
Posts: 2709
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:47 pm

Post by columbus » Wed May 25, 2011 10:09 pm

[quote=""toker""]I say we have free will. There are several positions that disagree. Some of them may be worth exploring.[/quote]

I already accepted a debate. You didn't agree to get on with it. I'm no longer inclined to keep on with it unless we come to an agreement about the subject. I'll post what I think on the philoshophy thread, and if you still think there is a matter for debate come back here and post that. I'll consider it.

Tom
I am remarkably conservative and judgemental for a queer atheist.

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:58 am

[quote=""columbus""]I'm no longer inclined to keep on with it unless we come to an agreement about the subject. [/quote]
Tom, you've impressed me with your lack of interest. It's kinda weird that you speak up anyway. Show some fire that you have no choice, and I'll damp your enthusiasm. Flare up! Make a stand!

User avatar
Monad
Posts: 2755
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:50 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Post by Monad » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:53 pm

The problem with this sort of debate is it presents the issue as a bipolar one when in fact there are at least 3 different positions.

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:40 pm

Either we can direct our own behaviors on purpose, or we can't.

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:34 pm

I'll debate the following statement with you: "We are able freely and purposefully direct our own behaviors."

Is this acceptable to you? If "freedom" is not involved, I wouldn't consider the term "free will" meaningful, so the statement as you have set it out above is not acceptable to me. I'm not interested in debating whether or not we have a will, only whether or not it is, in fact, free.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:48 pm

You figure that if we have free will, then we could do stuff we aren't actually able to do? I'll pass.

"We are able to purposefully direct our own behaviors." For that I would fight.

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:52 pm

Then you don't believe in free will. I withdraw my offer of debate.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:55 pm

The people's angst over the word "free" continues to freak me out. Street lights and thermostats make "decisions", they direct their own behavior, but they don't do it for their own purpose. They do it for our own purpose. They have no choice.

We have choice. We are free to make our own decisions, within whatever relevant boundaries exist.

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:01 am

[quote=""Politesse""]Then you don't believe in free will. I withdraw my offer of debate.[/quote]
Nonsense, Polly. Maybe I don't buy whatever weird def you peddle, but I advocate free will. Just use a sensible definition. Start with a dictionary, maybe?

User avatar
Politesse
Posts: 19647
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 am
Location: Chochenyo territory

Post by Politesse » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:11 am

You're free to define "free" however you wish, but I do insist that some definition be used. All you have defined is "will", and I don't contest the existence of will.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

User avatar
BioBeing
Posts: 5262
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:47 am

Post by BioBeing » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:18 am

I don't think toker gets this forum.
"Theologians, Christian apologists, and New Age gurus have, for decades now, claimed scientific support for their beliefs. These claims are provably wrong, and scientists who work in the applicable fields know they are wrong. However, their unwillingness to engage in the very real war that exists between science and religion is handing victory to religion by default.” Victor Stenger

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:59 am

[quote=""BioBeing""]I don't think toker gets this forum.[/quote]
If so, it joins a long list of things I don't get.

I think this thread is for setting the parameters of a formal discussion. Your post seems very out-of-place in that regard, as if you don't get this forum. :p

User avatar
toker
Posts: 1588
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:14 am
Location: western Colorado!

Post by toker » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:06 am

[quote=""Politesse""]You're free to define "free" however you wish, but I do insist that some definition be used. All you have defined is "will", and I don't contest the existence of will.[/quote]
Will is free will is volition. The ability to make conscious decisions on purpose. I say such ability does exist. Looking for an opponent who claims such ability does not exist.

Street lights WILL change. But they have no choice. People do have choice, and that's why we qualify the term. This isn't rocket surgery.

User avatar
Jobar
Posts: 26251
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Post by Jobar » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:07 am

I direct your attention to DMB's Staff Note in the OP.

Anyone who is interested in actually debating toker on this subject can notify one of the admins. Until then, this thread is locked.

Locked