no free will

Propose a formal or informal debate or discussion in this forum. Declare a challenge/invitation or respond to one.
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toker
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no free will

Post by toker » Sun May 08, 2011 4:10 am

Yes free will. I'll fight for what I have. You have no choice but to oppose me, so do it. Chose to argue against free will.

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Wizofoz
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Post by Wizofoz » Sun May 08, 2011 4:27 am

Well, start with a definition and we'll go from there.

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Post by Politesse » Sun May 08, 2011 5:11 am

Free from what?
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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toker
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Post by toker » Sun May 08, 2011 12:26 pm

[quote=""Wizofoz""]Well, start with a definition and we'll go from there.[/quote]
If someone figures they have no free will, I wanna see what definition they are using.

Me? I start with dictionaries, a lot. That way I know I'm using words the way my culture does.

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toker
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Post by toker » Sun May 08, 2011 12:28 pm

[quote=""Politesse""]Free from what?[/quote]
Tyranny and oppression. Oh wait, that's "free country".

Free from not having the ability to make choices on purpose.

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Post by Politesse » Sun May 08, 2011 1:20 pm

[quote=""toker""]Free from not having the ability to make choices on purpose.[/quote]I can't make heads or tails of sentence. Give me an example, maybe.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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DMB
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Post by DMB » Sun May 08, 2011 5:45 pm

I'm afraid I must point out that I'm going to have to move this thread if it doesn't firm up into some sort of debate proposal. Toker appears to be game for a debate. Is anyone else going to take the challenge?

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Post by BioBeing » Tue May 10, 2011 11:02 am

[quote=""toker""]Yes free will. I'll fight for what I have. You have no choice but to oppose me, so do it. Chose to argue against free will.[/quote]

I think toker is asking for a formal debate on free will. He will take the position that free will exists. If you are willing to oppose him one on one, then speak up.

This thread should be for setting up the debate, not debating the topic.

It's about time we had a good formal debate!
"Theologians, Christian apologists, and New Age gurus have, for decades now, claimed scientific support for their beliefs. These claims are provably wrong, and scientists who work in the applicable fields know they are wrong. However, their unwillingness to engage in the very real war that exists between science and religion is handing victory to religion by default.” Victor Stenger

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DMB
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Post by DMB » Tue May 10, 2011 11:21 am

I must ask people to stop posting here if they aren't interested in setting up a debate. You can start as many threads on free will in Philosophy or Religion as you like, but this forum is for debate proposals. Is anyone going to take up toker's proposal?

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Post by Politesse » Tue May 10, 2011 8:35 pm

I'd be fine doing a formal debate on free will, but I did request that the terms be meaningfully defined first, and that request has yet to be met.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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Post by columbus » Wed May 11, 2011 12:40 am

[quote=""DMB""]I must ask people to stop posting here if they aren't interested in setting up a debate. You can start as many threads on free will in Philosophy or Religion as you like, but this forum is for debate proposals. Is anyone going to take up toker's proposal?[/quote]

I'll debate Toker, although it feels a bit like beating up a kindergartener. I believe I already made my opening statement.

I'm willing, as long as everybody agrees to a short debate. My attention span concerning this sort of thing isn't too long. I will lose interest swiftly and completely if Toker continues to avoid what I post. Three exchanges, five hundred word max, with a week in between. Or thereabouts, I'm not big on rules. But if I get bored I will just stop posting. Of course, if it gets interesting Toker and I could go on for months.

Wadya say Toker, wanna party? :evil:

Tom
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Post by DMB » Wed May 11, 2011 7:53 am

[staffnote=Admin Note] I have moved some posts to the Philosophy forum. Please don't post in this thread unless you want to take part in a formal debate or exclusive engagement.[/staffnote]

It looks as though we have three possible participants: toker, Politesse and Columbus. Do you want a one-on-one formal debate or a three-sided EE?

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Post by munnki » Wed May 11, 2011 8:18 am

Every person acts within a set of constraints that are a priori restraints - namely those of language, ideology, culture and etc... Therefore the idea of free will in a pure sense is preposterous.... Intelligently defined, freedom is a relative and not an absolute concept and, furthermore, this has been well-explored and considered over the course of the 20th century. Therefore any definition of 'free will' which does not already state the boundaries of a) that freedom and b) that will is a Platonism and useless except for purposes of ideal comparison.

Of course, once you state the boundaries of freedom - you are forced to admit that it is a paradoxical concept - existing, again, only as a weird Platonic notion which we use to compare actually-existing real-world situations with nebulous concepts - so that the 'freedom we enjoy' as citizens of some country can only be compared in a very strange sense to the concept of freedom we have constructed over the last few hundred years.

A very good book on the evolution of and the types of the concept of freedom in US thought is 'The Story of American Freedom' by Eric Foner... which maps out an excellent chart of how the idea evolved and changed throughout US history...

I'm willing to take part in some kind of debate along these grounds... but only if Tom wears a strap-on...
Last edited by munnki on Wed May 11, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by DMB » Wed May 11, 2011 9:52 am

Four people is the upper limit for an EE. Or you could have two different one-one debates. Please state your preferences here or fix this by PM and then come back.

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Post by Politesse » Wed May 11, 2011 5:08 pm

I am not interested in continuing.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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Post by munnki » Wed May 11, 2011 5:48 pm

I'm prepared to have a more formal discussion/debate which analyses the notion of freewill and freedom with perhaps some formal bases/points laid out. The more general 'I am free'/'not you aren't' type debate I'm not interested in.

Sorry DMB for overwhelming this thread.
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Post by toker » Wed May 11, 2011 8:28 pm

[quote=""BioBeing""]It's about time we had a good formal debate![/quote]
What I want is a chance to deal with the reasons some people figure they have no choice in what they do, without having to deal with all the games, the diversions and misdirection that they usually employ. In the open threads, the noise overwhelms the signal.

But I'm not claiming I'm "good" at formal debate. I do claim to learn from encounters, and I bet my life my position is right. We have choice. The problem is figuring out how it works. The problem is not whether the ability to make choices exists, because it definitely does exist.
Last edited by toker on Wed May 11, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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toker
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Post by toker » Wed May 11, 2011 8:37 pm

[quote=""columbus""]
DMB;219701 wrote:I must ask people to stop posting here if they aren't interested in setting up a debate. You can start as many threads on free will in Philosophy or Religion as you like, but this forum is for debate proposals. Is anyone going to take up toker's proposal?
I'll debate Toker, although it feels a bit like beating up a kindergartener. I believe I already made my opening statement.[/quote]
Toker vs columbus.
Wadya say Toker, wanna party? :evil:
Yes. You're so brave for tackling what feels to you as a 5yr-old.

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Post by DMB » Wed May 11, 2011 8:38 pm

Can I suggest you decide who you want to discuss/debate with, toker? Definitions can come later.

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toker
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Post by toker » Wed May 11, 2011 8:45 pm

Toker vs columbus. I say we have free will.

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Post by toker » Wed May 11, 2011 8:48 pm

[quote=""columbus""]I will lose interest swiftly and completely if Toker continues to avoid what I post.[/quote]
I've never avoided you or your points. :mad:

Is that the way you debate?

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Post by toker » Wed May 11, 2011 8:54 pm

[quote=""munnki""]I'm prepared to have a more formal discussion/debate which analyses the notion of freewill and freedom with perhaps some formal bases/points laid out. The more general 'I am free'/'not you aren't' type debate I'm not interested in.

Sorry DMB for overwhelming this thread.[/quote]
Frankly, that sounds good to me, but I suspect you're one of those who don't disagree with determinism but are compatabilist? That's really not the sort of debate I'm ready for. I want to talk carefully with someone who thinks we have no choice in how we behave.

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Post by DMB » Thu May 12, 2011 5:47 am

OK. Columbus, are you still ready to debate with toker? If so, please post to that effect here and we will then negotiate the debate rules.

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Post by columbus » Thu May 12, 2011 4:38 pm

[quote=""DMB""]OK. Columbus, are you still ready to debate with toker? If so, please post to that effect here and we will then negotiate the debate rules.[/quote]

Um, OK.

To be honest, I don't think it's a great debate topic, better a thread topic. So I would prefer something short. Say, three exchanges, of 250-300 words each, over two weeks total. What do you say Toker?

Tom
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Post by toker » Thu May 12, 2011 7:30 pm

It's a great topic, the way "is the earth flat" is a great topic. You keep telling us how uninterested you are, Tom. Because, I presume, you realize how silly it is to choose to argue that you cannot make choices.

I bet any potential debate will die once you give the definition for "free will" that you use when you claim that free will doesn't exist. So let's see your "definition".

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