Aircraft Identification

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:48 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Hmmm...

Image

I'm not as familiar with the Short civil Empire flying boats as I am with the Pan Am experience with Sikorsky, Martin and Boeing. It looks like I should do some reading on Imperial Airways. And the Short brothers' venture. Roe & Saunders were in to making flying boats, too, weren't they?[/quote]


Image & Image


These look like just the pair for some winter reading.
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:23 pm

Whoop....I've attracted attention. I'm now getting Icon A-5 ads in my feed.

Image

Hmmm...They look like updated Republic Seebees.

And, it looks like Vickers is trying to get in to this market with their Wave:

Image

But wait...There's more!
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Post by Worldtraveller » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:50 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Whoop....I've attracted attention. I'm now getting Icon A-5 ads in my feed.

Image

Hmmm...They look like updated Republic Seebees.

And, it looks like Vickers is trying to get in to this market with their Wave:

Image

But wait...There's more![/quote]
The VP of engineering at Icon is a friend of mine. I can probably get you a discount. ;)

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:24 pm

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
The VP of engineering at Icon is a friend of mine. I can probably get you a discount. ;) [/quote]

Cool beans.

I'm gonna guess that this is well out of my paltry budget, even with a 'discount'. (One of their videos shows a 'potential customer' recommending an Icon A-5 instead of 'just another Maserati in the garage'.)

So, since you've a friend in neck deep, can I assume you've had a spin in one?

I would think that they would offer a real boat-barn-storming opportunity. I'd pay for a ride.
Last edited by Roo St. Gallus on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:27 am

Okay, aviation buffs...

The Short Mayo Composite, 1938.

Image
wiki wrote:...Mercury separated from her carrier at 8 pm to continue what was to become the first commercial[note 1] non-stop East-to-West transatlantic flight by a heavier-than-air machine. This initial journey took 20 hrs 21 min at an average ground speed of 144 mph (232 km/h).[11]
The pair in Ireland.

The Maia-Mercury composite continued in use with Imperial Airways, including Mercury flying to Alexandria, Egypt, in December 1938. After modifications to extend Mercury's range, it established a record flight for a seaplane of 6,045 miles (9,726.4 km) from Dundee in Scotland to Alexander Bay, in South Africa between 6 and 8 October 1938.

Only one example of the Short-Mayo composite was built, the S.21 Maia with the registration G-ADHK and the S.20 Mercury G-ADHJ...
Only one example of the composite was constructed and was used the first time to accomplish the first ever east to west heaver-than-air flight from Foyle to Montreal. Then it goes on to talk about how it was repeatedly used.

So...If there is only one and it launches in air to allow the four-engine floatplane to make it to North America, what does the floatplane do once it is in North America? It cannot make the distance without the lift, and it requires the special lift, of which there is only one, and it is in Europe. How does this work? What am I missing? How does the specially launched floatplane return?
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Post by Worldtraveller » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:10 am

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Worldtraveller;675690 wrote: The VP of engineering at Icon is a friend of mine. I can probably get you a discount. ;)
Cool beans.

I'm gonna guess that this is well out of my paltry budget, even with a 'discount'. (One of their videos shows a 'potential customer' recommending an Icon A-5 instead of 'just another Maserati in the garage'.)

So, since you've a friend in neck deep, can I assume you've had a spin in one?

I would think that they would offer a real boat-barn-storming opportunity. I'd pay for a ride.[/QUOTE]
Have not had a chance to see one in person yet. One of the things I haven't done yet, aviation wise, is fly in a float/seaplane. It'll happen eventually, though. :)

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Post by Worldtraveller » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:11 am

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Okay, aviation buffs...

The Short Mayo Composite, 1938.

Image
wiki wrote:...Mercury separated from her carrier at 8 pm to continue what was to become the first commercial[note 1] non-stop East-to-West transatlantic flight by a heavier-than-air machine. This initial journey took 20 hrs 21 min at an average ground speed of 144 mph (232 km/h).[11]
The pair in Ireland.

The Maia-Mercury composite continued in use with Imperial Airways, including Mercury flying to Alexandria, Egypt, in December 1938. After modifications to extend Mercury's range, it established a record flight for a seaplane of 6,045 miles (9,726.4 km) from Dundee in Scotland to Alexander Bay, in South Africa between 6 and 8 October 1938.

Only one example of the Short-Mayo composite was built, the S.21 Maia with the registration G-ADHK and the S.20 Mercury G-ADHJ...
Only one example of the composite was constructed and was used the first time to accomplish the first ever east to west heaver-than-air flight from Foyle to Montreal. Then it goes on to talk about how it was repeatedly used.

So...If there is only one and it launches in air to allow the four-engine floatplane to make it to North America, what does the floatplane do once it is in North America? It cannot make the distance without the lift, and it requires the special lift, of which there is only one, and it is in Europe. How does this work? What am I missing? How does the specially launched floatplane return?[/QUOTE]
I would assume they'd have to have the launch/assist planes stationed in places around the world?

Missed the part about there being only one built. Fuck if I know. :p

Maybe they took a different route back, with refueling stops or something. I'd have to see if I can find some more information on the history and see how it actually operated.

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:56 am

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;675695 wrote:Okay, aviation buffs...

The Short Mayo Composite, 1938.

Image
wiki wrote:...Mercury separated from her carrier at 8 pm to continue what was to become the first commercial[note 1] non-stop East-to-West transatlantic flight by a heavier-than-air machine. This initial journey took 20 hrs 21 min at an average ground speed of 144 mph (232 km/h).[11]
The pair in Ireland.

The Maia-Mercury composite continued in use with Imperial Airways, including Mercury flying to Alexandria, Egypt, in December 1938. After modifications to extend Mercury's range, it established a record flight for a seaplane of 6,045 miles (9,726.4 km) from Dundee in Scotland to Alexander Bay, in South Africa between 6 and 8 October 1938.

Only one example of the Short-Mayo composite was built, the S.21 Maia with the registration G-ADHK and the S.20 Mercury G-ADHJ...
Only one example of the composite was constructed and was used the first time to accomplish the first ever east to west heaver-than-air flight from Foyle to Montreal. Then it goes on to talk about how it was repeatedly used.

So...If there is only one and it launches in air to allow the four-engine floatplane to make it to North America, what does the floatplane do once it is in North America? It cannot make the distance without the lift, and it requires the special lift, of which there is only one, and it is in Europe. How does this work? What am I missing? How does the specially launched floatplane return?
I would assume they'd have to have the launch/assist planes stationed in places around the world?

Missed the part about there being only one built. Fuck if I know. :p

Maybe they took a different route back, with refueling stops or something. I'd have to see if I can find some more information on the history and see how it actually operated.[/QUOTE]

Heh...Yeah, I was reading along thinking it was an inspired approach, considering that the Short Empire could not cross the Atlantic...I even looked up the late 1930s Flight articles about the composite. Lots of golly-gee-whiz stuff about the composite connection and lift of the composite, but even in those, nobody mentions what happens to the launched craft once it reaches its destination with no launch craft at the other end. I'm guessing that the craft had to take the 'Atlantic Bridge' route, through Gander and Reykjavik, home.
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:05 am

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;675693 wrote:
Worldtraveller;675690 wrote: The VP of engineering at Icon is a friend of mine. I can probably get you a discount. ;)
Cool beans.

I'm gonna guess that this is well out of my paltry budget, even with a 'discount'. (One of their videos shows a 'potential customer' recommending an Icon A-5 instead of 'just another Maserati in the garage'.)

So, since you've a friend in neck deep, can I assume you've had a spin in one?

I would think that they would offer a real boat-barn-storming opportunity. I'd pay for a ride.
Have not had a chance to see one in person yet. One of the things I haven't done yet, aviation wise, is fly in a float/seaplane. It'll happen eventually, though. :) [/QUOTE]

I'm intrigued that it is a seaplane that you can fold up and park in your double garage (if you have one).

Likewise on the seaplane. I'd love to do an actual flying boat, but I suspect it will more likely be on a DHC craft on floats (Beaver, Otter, or Twin Otter) out of Victoria Harbour.

I had a flight booked through Northwest Seaplanes to do a 'wine tour' off Lake Chelan, where they fly you in to the wine tasting and fly you back out (Beaver or Otter), but that was quashed by an importune property lien collection by a local government agency. I could rebook for the 'wine flight', but last summer, after I was supposed to have flown in, the immediate area had a nasty forest fire. An extensive one, too. I don't imagine that this soon after a fire that the forested countryside is going to be as fetching as it had. [ETA: Evidently, they lost their mooring lease on the lake and are not operating there in 2017.]
Last edited by Roo St. Gallus on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:54 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Worldtraveller;675699 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;675695 wrote:Okay, aviation buffs...

The Short Mayo Composite, 1938.

Image
wiki wrote:...Mercury separated from her carrier at 8 pm to continue what was to become the first commercial[note 1] non-stop East-to-West transatlantic flight by a heavier-than-air machine. This initial journey took 20 hrs 21 min at an average ground speed of 144 mph (232 km/h).[11]
The pair in Ireland.

The Maia-Mercury composite continued in use with Imperial Airways, including Mercury flying to Alexandria, Egypt, in December 1938. After modifications to extend Mercury's range, it established a record flight for a seaplane of 6,045 miles (9,726.4 km) from Dundee in Scotland to Alexander Bay, in South Africa between 6 and 8 October 1938.

Only one example of the Short-Mayo composite was built, the S.21 Maia with the registration G-ADHK and the S.20 Mercury G-ADHJ...
Only one example of the composite was constructed and was used the first time to accomplish the first ever east to west heaver-than-air flight from Foyle to Montreal. Then it goes on to talk about how it was repeatedly used.

So...If there is only one and it launches in air to allow the four-engine floatplane to make it to North America, what does the floatplane do once it is in North America? It cannot make the distance without the lift, and it requires the special lift, of which there is only one, and it is in Europe. How does this work? What am I missing? How does the specially launched floatplane return?
I would assume they'd have to have the launch/assist planes stationed in places around the world?

Missed the part about there being only one built. Fuck if I know. :p

Maybe they took a different route back, with refueling stops or something. I'd have to see if I can find some more information on the history and see how it actually operated.
Heh...Yeah, I was reading along thinking it was an inspired approach, considering that the Short Empire could not cross the Atlantic...I even looked up the late 1930s Flight articles about the composite. Lots of golly-gee-whiz stuff about the composite connection and lift of the composite, but even in those, nobody mentions what happens to the launched craft once it reaches its destination with no launch craft at the other end. I'm guessing that the craft had to take the 'Atlantic Bridge' route, through Gander and Reykjavik, home.[/QUOTE]

I got my copy of the Sims book, above, on the Empire flying boats, and it states that the floatplane flew from the flying boat launch off Foyle, to Montreal, then to New York. From there, they returned to Montreal, then flew to Botwood, in Newfoundland, and then to the Azores, then Lisbon and finally back to reconnect with the launch craft.

So...If it can make that, why the launch on the Empire? The drift I get is that it can do all the peripheral travel, but each take off and landing is a huge use of fuel and any cargo just increases that use. The Empire provides the lift for the load and the floatplane, and the floatplane could then deliver the load to a destination neither craft could reach alone, with the load. I'm assuming the backhaul load was nonexistent or exceedingly light.
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Post by Worldtraveller » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:55 pm

Interesting. It's a horribly inefficient way to achieve a goal, but I guess you do what you can with what you got!

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:22 am

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]Interesting. It's a horribly inefficient way to achieve a goal, but I guess you do what you can with what you got![/quote]

Heh...Yeah.

Only one built, mind you. They expected orders to roll in for twenty more composites. None did.

Everything was diverted to war, and when the war was over, the Constellation, along with Douglas craft, were in the skies and, for some odd reason, there were a lot more airfields. Long-range land-based airliners displaced flying boats.
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:07 am

Hmmm...A nice enough clear summer day and I noted that the ANG fighter jocks are doing flights over my place. But they must be practicing for something with visitor fighter jocks, because the fly-bys are pairs, one each of an F-15C/D Eagle and an F-18 Hornet of some type.

The Eagles are what the state ANG, based at nearby PDX, keeps in readiness; but the Hornets are distinctly not locals. I don't know if they are doing joint maneuvers with a Navy/Marine unit, or practicing with the guest Canucks for the airshow that is nearly two weeks off.
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Post by Worldtraveller » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:08 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Hmmm...A nice enough clear summer day and I noted that the ANG fighter jocks are doing flights over my place. But they must be practicing for something with visitor fighter jocks, because the fly-bys are pairs, one each of an F-15C/D Eagle and an F-18 Hornet of some type.

The Eagles are what the state ANG, based at nearby PDX, keeps in readiness; but the Hornets are distinctly not locals. I don't know if they are doing joint maneuvers with a Navy/Marine unit, or practicing with the guest Canucks for the airshow that is nearly two weeks off.[/quote]
Could be a bit of both. Can you make out the markings on the F-18s (and can you tell if they are the B/C model, or the E/F)?

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:11 pm

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;676683 wrote:Hmmm...A nice enough clear summer day and I noted that the ANG fighter jocks are doing flights over my place. But they must be practicing for something with visitor fighter jocks, because the fly-bys are pairs, one each of an F-15C/D Eagle and an F-18 Hornet of some type.

The Eagles are what the state ANG, based at nearby PDX, keeps in readiness; but the Hornets are distinctly not locals. I don't know if they are doing joint maneuvers with a Navy/Marine unit, or practicing with the guest Canucks for the airshow that is nearly two weeks off.
Could be a bit of both. Can you make out the markings on the F-18s (and can you tell if they are the B/C model, or the E/F)?[/QUOTE]

That's a negatory on both counts. The curse of the trees.
Last edited by Roo St. Gallus on Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Worldtraveller » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:48 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Worldtraveller;676919 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;676683 wrote:Hmmm...A nice enough clear summer day and I noted that the ANG fighter jocks are doing flights over my place. But they must be practicing for something with visitor fighter jocks, because the fly-bys are pairs, one each of an F-15C/D Eagle and an F-18 Hornet of some type.

The Eagles are what the state ANG, based at nearby PDX, keeps in readiness; but the Hornets are distinctly not locals. I don't know if they are doing joint maneuvers with a Navy/Marine unit, or practicing with the guest Canucks for the airshow that is nearly two weeks off.
Could be a bit of both. Can you make out the markings on the F-18s (and can you tell if they are the B/C model, or the E/F)?
That's a negatory on both counts. The curse of the trees.[/QUOTE]
I had a tour of Naval Air Station Whidbey a few years back, and got to go to the airbase' control tower. We watched half a dozen F-18Es roll along in full afterburner and blast towards the horizon. It was impressive.

Then a fully loaded C-17 came along, and took off in less than half the distance. :D It made me chuckle.

That was the tour we got to fly in the full size P-3 Orion simulator on base there, too. That was a lot of fun. The simulator is huge, large enough for the 3 flight crew, with a small standing section in the back where the rest of the group sat or stood, and the sim officer controlled the simulator. And the whole thing moved quite a bit. The guys in the back really had to hang on when we lost the #4 engine on take off! :cool:

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:24 am

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;676936 wrote:
Worldtraveller;676919 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;676683 wrote:Hmmm...A nice enough clear summer day and I noted that the ANG fighter jocks are doing flights over my place. But they must be practicing for something with visitor fighter jocks, because the fly-bys are pairs, one each of an F-15C/D Eagle and an F-18 Hornet of some type.

The Eagles are what the state ANG, based at nearby PDX, keeps in readiness; but the Hornets are distinctly not locals. I don't know if they are doing joint maneuvers with a Navy/Marine unit, or practicing with the guest Canucks for the airshow that is nearly two weeks off.
Could be a bit of both. Can you make out the markings on the F-18s (and can you tell if they are the B/C model, or the E/F)?
That's a negatory on both counts. The curse of the trees.
I had a tour of Naval Air Station Whidbey a few years back, and got to go to the airbase' control tower. We watched half a dozen F-18Es roll along in full afterburner and blast towards the horizon. It was impressive. [/quote]

I'll bet. Envy.
Then a fully loaded C-17 came along, and took off in less than half the distance. :D It made me chuckle.
LOL. Yeah, many cargo planes, even the big ones, seem to be designed on the STOL paradigm.

You've heard the tale of snark between a fighter jock and a BUFF pilot who was getting fighter escort?
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Post by Worldtraveller » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:14 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Worldtraveller;676964 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;676936 wrote:
Worldtraveller;676919 wrote: Could be a bit of both. Can you make out the markings on the F-18s (and can you tell if they are the B/C model, or the E/F)?
That's a negatory on both counts. The curse of the trees.
I had a tour of Naval Air Station Whidbey a few years back, and got to go to the airbase' control tower. We watched half a dozen F-18Es roll along in full afterburner and blast towards the horizon. It was impressive.
I'll bet. Envy.
Then a fully loaded C-17 came along, and took off in less than half the distance. :D It made me chuckle.
LOL. Yeah, many cargo planes, even the big ones, seem to be designed on the STOL paradigm.

You've heard the tale of snark between a fighter jock and a BUFF pilot who was getting fighter escort?[/QUOTE]
Possibly, but it's not ringing a bell. (That's your queue!)

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:06 pm

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;676977 wrote:
Worldtraveller;676964 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;676936 wrote: That's a negatory on both counts. The curse of the trees.
I had a tour of Naval Air Station Whidbey a few years back, and got to go to the airbase' control tower. We watched half a dozen F-18Es roll along in full afterburner and blast towards the horizon. It was impressive.
I'll bet. Envy.
Then a fully loaded C-17 came along, and took off in less than half the distance. :D It made me chuckle.
LOL. Yeah, many cargo planes, even the big ones, seem to be designed on the STOL paradigm.

You've heard the tale of snark between a fighter jock and a BUFF pilot who was getting fighter escort?
Possibly, but it's not ringing a bell. (That's your queue!)[/QUOTE]

So a fighter jock flying an F-16 was assigned escort duty to a BUFF being ferried to another field. Of course, it wasn't long before the fighter jock got a little bored, and, as fighter jocks tend to be, a little cocky.

The fighter jock decides to poke some fun at the pilot who's forced to fly such an ungainly vessel.

"My plane's so much more nimble than yours. Watch this" says the jock, as he proceeds to do loop-de-loops, barrel rolls, corkscrews, and all manner of fast paced aerial acrobatics.

"Very impressive," responds the BUFF pilot. "But that's nothing, watch this." For a half hour the large craft simply plods along straight as an arrow, not even so much as dipping the wings.

After a while, the BUFF pilot comes back on the radio and says "So, what'd you think?"

Jock: "What d'you mean? You didn't do anything. You just flew straight for a while."

BUFF: "Oh no, that wasn't all. I got up, stretched my legs, went to the bathroom, made a sandwich, and poured myself a cup of coffee...Neat, huh? Have a nice rest of the trip."


There's another, where the cargo pilot is challenged to do things the fighter can do with his plane, but the cargo pilot cannot. Finally, the cargo pilot came back with something he could do that the fighter could not.....shut down two of its engines and still complete its mission.
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Post by Worldtraveller » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:59 pm

:notworthy: :D

those remind me...I used to have some military/aviation comic books 'There I was...." or something like that. I wonder if they're still in storage someplace. I would love to scan some of them.

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Post by Tubby » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:31 am

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]those remind me...I used to have some military/aviation comic books 'There I was...." or something like that. I wonder if they're still in storage someplace. I would love to scan some of them.[/quote]

Dad subscribed to an aviation magazine which had a regular feature, There I Was at 10,000 Feet.

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Post by Worldtraveller » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:23 am

[quote=""Tubby""]
Worldtraveller;677003 wrote:those remind me...I used to have some military/aviation comic books 'There I was...." or something like that. I wonder if they're still in storage someplace. I would love to scan some of them.
Dad subscribed to an aviation magazine which had a regular feature, There I Was at 10,000 Feet.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I think the two I had were compilations of those strips. I need to dig through my storage when I get back home now.

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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:20 pm

Along those lines, you might like this story:

L.A. SPEED CHECK

The story is related by the Sled pilot who was involved.
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Post by Worldtraveller » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:33 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]Along those lines, you might like this story:

L.A. SPEED CHECK

The story is related by the Sled pilot who was involved.[/quote]
Already posted earlier (the link I put is the full presentation, including the speedcheck part) :D

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]And this is a classic if you're a fan of the SR-71.

The video isn't much, but listen to the end. it's worth it.

http://twistedsifter.com/videos/an-sr-7 ... eck-story/[/quote]

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Post by Shake » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:03 pm

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]
Roo St. Gallus;677200 wrote:Along those lines, you might like this story:

L.A. SPEED CHECK

The story is related by the Sled pilot who was involved.
Already posted earlier (the link I put is the full presentation, including the speedcheck part) :D

[quote=""Worldtraveller""]And this is a classic if you're a fan of the SR-71.

The video isn't much, but listen to the end. it's worth it.

http://twistedsifter.com/videos/an-sr-7 ... eck-story/[/quote][/QUOTE]

Ha ha ha! Priceless! :D :notworthy:

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