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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:45 am

[quote=""MattShizzle""]At one time TR was similar to SC, with somewhat less moderation. Even RnR at one time wasn't as bad as TR became. Definitely neither were ever alt-right. In fact, pretty sure any alt-right type would be quickly driven away like most everyone else would.[/quote]

Hmm... but that's a problem. A forum should attract a variety of people with a variety of views. For a forum to truly be a free thought forum we want people to feel free to express themselves. A forum where people don't have opposing views is a dead forum. Even alt-right people should feel welcome.

The problem with the alt-right isn't the opinions they hold. But that they have rarely thought it through. And that they spam forums with with pithy posts, without substance. That's where moderation comes in. Moderators can force people like this to make an effort, or get kicked out.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:35 am

[quote=""Pandora""]
:D There are a couple of precedents for the other side of that. Rants & Raves (now deceased) followed by TalkRational (R&R's illegitimate love child) had almost no moderation, but are most definitely NOT alt-right. Pretty much full on Ctrl-Left.
[/quote]

The Ctril-Left is the bastard child of the alt-right. Just as bad. I don't have a problem with disagreements. My problem is with comments and arguments that haven't been thought through.

Few things makes me as worried on a forum as somebody quoting Chomsky. That rarely ends well.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:23 pm

I moved some of the disputation to its own thread- Elitism.

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Shake
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Post by Shake » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:43 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Tharmas;678362 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
Thanks for reminding me of FF. I just re-registered there. First joined in Feb 2006 and last visited in 2010. Never posted much, but I remember enjoying it. Recognize a lot of the posters' names from here and there around the various secular internet stops I've made.
It is not nearly as robust as it was ten years back. But then, few of us are.[/QUOTE]

Part of that is due to what the Doc said above:
... the trolls and parasites will come = death
They came from within. IIRC, that board broke off from the board, now defunct, known as the Heathen Hangout. I was among the earliest members to make the move over to FF. I got somewhat embroiled in a feud between the two boards, or rather the admins of each (Gurdur and viscousmemories). While largely defending HH, I managed to stay in fairly good graces at FF, at least as far as I knew. The board went downhill before long, but I had friends with whom I kept in touch there, and also had others whom I just liked to read, even if we barely interacted. I flamed out there in a mix of online harshness and a rough RL spot, a bad combination. It gave me good reason not to go back, though I do stop in from time to time just to lurk.

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Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:54 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
MattShizzle;678448 wrote:At one time TR was similar to SC, with somewhat less moderation. Even RnR at one time wasn't as bad as TR became. Definitely neither were ever alt-right. In fact, pretty sure any alt-right type would be quickly driven away like most everyone else would.
Hmm... but that's a problem. A forum should attract a variety of people with a variety of views. For a forum to truly be a free thought forum we want people to feel free to express themselves. A forum where people don't have opposing views is a dead forum. Even alt-right people should feel welcome.

The problem with the alt-right isn't the opinions they hold. But that they have rarely thought it through. And that they spam forums with with pithy posts, without substance. That's where moderation comes in. Moderators can force people like this to make an effort, or get kicked out.[/QUOTE]

Neither RnR or TR drove people away on purpose (most of the time, there are a couple of very specific exceptions). It's mostly just a side effect of the minimalist moderation. There was no "don't be a jerk" style of rule, so arguments and name calling and such was just fine. Mostly, modding fall to preventing doxing, plagiarism, massive disruption, and sometimes splitting threads. But the composition of the forum was already substantially skewed - atheists, especially US atheists, tend to lean quite a bit to the left.

So the very small group of right-leaning folk (who were a LOT less right-leaning than the average US republican) tended to get a bit of a dog-pile effect. Don't get me wrong, there's a use for having a free forum where you can just go ahead and tell the asshole that they're being an asshole. I never had a problem with that. But it is definitely hard to be in the minority there with no support.
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform - Mark Twain

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Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:57 pm

[quote=""Shake""]
They came from within. IIRC, that board broke off from the board, now defunct, known as the Heathen Hangout. I was among the earliest members to make the move over to FF. I got somewhat embroiled in a feud between the two boards, or rather the admins of each (Gurdur and viscousmemories). While largely defending HH, I managed to stay in fairly good graces at FF, at least as far as I knew. The board went downhill before long, but I had friends with whom I kept in touch there, and also had others whom I just liked to read, even if we barely interacted. I flamed out there in a mix of online harshness and a rough RL spot, a bad combination. It gave me good reason not to go back, though I do stop in from time to time just to lurk.[/quote]
At some point, we should all get together and collect the stories and anecdotes that go with all of the various atheist-ish forums. I know lpetrich has the flowchart of ancestry, but I'd love to see that filled out with descriptions of the events, and the impacts they had on the community.
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform - Mark Twain

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:56 pm

[quote=""Shake""]
Roo St. Gallus;678363 wrote:
Tharmas;678362 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
Thanks for reminding me of FF. I just re-registered there. First joined in Feb 2006 and last visited in 2010. Never posted much, but I remember enjoying it. Recognize a lot of the posters' names from here and there around the various secular internet stops I've made.
It is not nearly as robust as it was ten years back. But then, few of us are.
Part of that is due to what the Doc said above:
... the trolls and parasites will come = death
They came from within. IIRC, that board broke off from the board, now defunct, known as the Heathen Hangout. I was among the earliest members to make the move over to FF. I got somewhat embroiled in a feud between the two boards, or rather the admins of each (Gurdur and viscousmemories). While largely defending HH, I managed to stay in fairly good graces at FF, at least as far as I knew. The board went downhill before long, but I had friends with whom I kept in touch there, and also had others whom I just liked to read, even if we barely interacted. I flamed out there in a mix of online harshness and a rough RL spot, a bad combination. It gave me good reason not to go back, though I do stop in from time to time just to lurk.[/QUOTE]

Heathen's Hangout was originally meant to take the place of the Freethinkers Private Forums at Internet Infidels, when the powers-that-were at II closed down the FPFs, much to the objection and disgust of many of the members. They also closed the Rants, Raves and Preaching forum- which is the direct ancestor of our own Smoking Section- intending to make the board more mannerly. [added- I might mention that I consider those 2003 closures the end of II's 'golden age', and the beginning of a long slow decline from the greatness that II once was.]

For a number of years, I frequently mounted my 'bring back RR&P!' soapbox, trying to convince the admins that a good discussion board needed a place where bad manners were tolerated to an extent, but discouraged. Such a forum makes the whole board easier to moderate, because there's a place to shovel the threads that are deteriorating but still have some value- and, perhaps, teach better ways of interacting to some who are able and willing to learn them. Some of the donnybrooks that took place there were ROFLMAO funny- and there were a good number of 'diamonds in the rough' to be found there, too. I'm still disgusted that the archives of RR&P and the FPFs were erased. :mad:

Anyway, the original HH was run by livius drusus and viscousmemories, and I was in the first 50 members, IIRC. But I left it before Gurdur got involved in the running of it.
Last edited by Jobar on Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lpetrich
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Post by lpetrich » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:50 am

[quote=""Pandora""]
At some point, we should all get together and collect the stories and anecdotes that go with all of the various atheist-ish forums. I know lpetrich has the flowchart of ancestry, but I'd love to see that filled out with descriptions of the events, and the impacts they had on the community.[/quote]
Image

and

Image

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Shake
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Post by Shake » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:54 pm

:clap: <== for the previous two posts

But to amend/clarify Jobar's post: the Heathen Hangout was originally called Freethought Forum and stayed that way until Gurdur's takeover when liv and vm left to set up their own forum and took the name with them, forcing a rename.

That chart has been updated, I see, and nicely so. There are some places on there of which I was not even aware until just now. Others, I was aware of, but got to a point where I was too spread out and just couldn't add another board to the mix.

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:02 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]
Shake;678651 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678363 wrote:
Tharmas;678362 wrote:
Thanks for reminding me of FF. I just re-registered there. First joined in Feb 2006 and last visited in 2010. Never posted much, but I remember enjoying it. Recognize a lot of the posters' names from here and there around the various secular internet stops I've made.
It is not nearly as robust as it was ten years back. But then, few of us are.
Part of that is due to what the Doc said above:
... the trolls and parasites will come = death
They came from within. IIRC, that board broke off from the board, now defunct, known as the Heathen Hangout. I was among the earliest members to make the move over to FF. I got somewhat embroiled in a feud between the two boards, or rather the admins of each (Gurdur and viscousmemories). While largely defending HH, I managed to stay in fairly good graces at FF, at least as far as I knew. The board went downhill before long, but I had friends with whom I kept in touch there, and also had others whom I just liked to read, even if we barely interacted. I flamed out there in a mix of online harshness and a rough RL spot, a bad combination. It gave me good reason not to go back, though I do stop in from time to time just to lurk.
Heathen's Hangout was originally meant to take the place of the Freethinkers Private Forums at Internet Infidels, when the powers-that-were at II closed down the FPFs, much to the objection and disgust of many of the members. They also closed the Rants, Raves and Preaching forum- which is the direct ancestor of our own Smoking Section- intending to make the board more mannerly. [added- I might mention that I consider those 2003 closures the end of II's 'golden age', and the beginning of a long slow decline from the greatness that II once was.]

For a number of years, I frequently mounted my 'bring back RR&P!' soapbox, trying to convince the admins that a good discussion board needed a place where bad manners were tolerated to an extent, but discouraged. Such a forum makes the whole board easier to moderate, because there's a place to shovel the threads that are deteriorating but still have some value- and, perhaps, teach better ways of interacting to some who are able and willing to learn them. Some of the donnybrooks that took place there were ROFLMAO funny- and there were a good number of 'diamonds in the rough' to be found there, too. I'm still disgusted that the archives of RR&P and the FPFs were erased. :mad:

Anyway, the original HH was run by livius drusus and viscousmemories, and I was in the first 50 members, IIRC. But I left it before Gurdur got involved in the running of it.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm....I was at HH in 2004. But it was not run by livius drusus and viscousmemories, but some other tin god (an interim admin?), who banned me. When Gurdur took over, I was allowed back in, but by then, I had found it to be low activity, hyper-cliquish, and cloying, and stumbled in to the newly formed FF, which livius and VM did administer. There seemed to be hot and cold running troll wars around that time.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:35 pm

[quote=""Shake""] :clap: <== for the previous two posts

But to amend/clarify Jobar's post: the Heathen Hangout was originally called Freethought Forum and stayed that way until Gurdur's takeover when liv and vm left to set up their own forum and took the name with them, forcing a rename.

That chart has been updated, I see, and nicely so. There are some places on there of which I was not even aware until just now. Others, I was aware of, but got to a point where I was too spread out and just couldn't add another board to the mix.[/quote]

Ah- right you are. Liv and vm took the FF name with them, and left HH with... mmmm... warrenly, and someone else. (Christ On A Stick, I think.) Liv and vm wanted to make a public forum, rather than the private one that FF was originally meant to be.

I used to get on wonderfully with liv- but she and I had a major falling out over our variant notions of how FF should be run; IIRC, the dispute centered on whether people should be banned from FF, or not. I was of the opinion that a banhammer was a vital necessity, even if very seldom used; she thought that careful vetting of new members would obviate the need for one. (But she might have a different recollection; it's been quite a while, and I'm pretty sure all the threads where we argued about it are one with the snows of yesteryear...)

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:51 pm

I've remarked before that I've been a member of FF, GG (Garnet's Grotto, a private board), HH, and II.

If I ever started a board all on my own, it would have to be JJ, though I'm not sure what the second 'J' would be. :D

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lpetrich
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Post by lpetrich » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:15 am

Jobar's Joint?

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MattShizzle
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Post by MattShizzle » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:23 am

I was only on RnR, TR and here. I didn't have a modern computer until September 2004. Last computer before that was a Commodore 64.

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Mediancat
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Post by Mediancat » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:46 am

[quote=""lpetrich""]Jobar's Joint?[/quote]

That's what I'd go with.

Rob
Je suis Randian, tendance James.

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:28 pm

That would be the obvious one- but until Georgia breaks down and legalizes weed, I'd be a bit hesitant to use it. ;)

Rheanne
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Post by Rheanne » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:33 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]she thought that careful vetting of new members would obviate the need for one. [/quote]

I think that's rather naive.

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Hermit
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Post by Hermit » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:48 pm

[quote=""Pandora""]TR was pretty much the local pub in a small town, where there was likely to be a fist fight once a month, but most people still got along and everyone knew the words to all the songs on the jukebox. SC was the corner cafe in a nice suburb, where you get the regulars having passionate debates that sometimes involve throwing biscotti at each other or dumping the cream over someone's head, but most of the time it's just laid back discussion.[/quote]
Lovely wordsmithing.

TR has (or had) some amazingly knowledgeable members, and the posts reflected this. Unfortunately there are (or were) too many others who behaved like the stereotypical 14 year old brat in a classroom without a teacher. That is to say, they could not control themselves. That made the signal to noise ratio unbearable to me. So I left.

On the other hand, there are several other forums which I won't bother naming, that were moderated by milk monitors head prefects with swagger sticks, that became equally unbearable to me.

So now I stick with middle of the road forums like this one and Rationalia.

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Shake
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Post by Shake » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:35 am

[quote=""Jobar""]I've remarked before that I've been a member of FF, GG (Garnet's Grotto, a private board), HH, and II.

If I ever started a board all on my own, it would have to be JJ, though I'm not sure what the second 'J' would be. :D [/quote]

And of course, as the chart reminded me, you have Kith and Kin which could be KK. Also, I'll second the idea of Jobar's Joint!

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Ozymandias
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Post by Ozymandias » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:03 pm

This is the only atheist forum I have ever posted on. I found my way here from scienceforums. (Just went back for a look and notice that some of my posts are still stickied - I haven't posted there in years.)

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Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:00 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]I've remarked before that I've been a member of FF, GG (Garnet's Grotto, a private board), HH, and II.

If I ever started a board all on my own, it would have to be JJ, though I'm not sure what the second 'J' would be. :D [/quote]

Gotta say I'm okay with this place not being SS...
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform - Mark Twain

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:31 am

Well, we *do* have the Smoking Section. ;)

(When we were setting up the Cafe, we considered several names for SS. One of them was 'Pendarica', which, as some recall, was what a number of the TalkRational regulars called us, for a while.)

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:27 pm

I would have no objection to hanging out at Jobar's Joint.

Of course, I'd expect top rate smoked meat and a decent cold beer.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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justme
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Post by justme » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:56 pm

The way I see it. If you've pissed off both sides then you are doing something right.

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justme
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Post by justme » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:04 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
MattShizzle;678448 wrote:At one time TR was similar to SC, with somewhat less moderation. Even RnR at one time wasn't as bad as TR became. Definitely neither were ever alt-right. In fact, pretty sure any alt-right type would be quickly driven away like most everyone else would.
Hmm... but that's a problem. A forum should attract a variety of people with a variety of views. For a forum to truly be a free thought forum we want people to feel free to express themselves. A forum where people don't have opposing views is a dead forum. Even alt-right people should feel welcome.

The problem with the alt-right isn't the opinions they hold. But that they have rarely thought it through. And that they spam forums with with pithy posts, without substance. That's where moderation comes in. Moderators can force people like this to make an effort, or get kicked out.[/QUOTE]

I think the right has their own set of truths and are on the lookout for anything and everything to verify that truth. What they do is react to a situation according to those truths instead of trying to understand anything.

I think that is the reason the evangelical community has hitched their wagons to them.

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