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Copernicus
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Post by Copernicus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:39 pm

There are a lot of problems with this asynchronous method of communication that make it difficult for everyone to sing in harmony. For one thing, different people come here for different reasons. Some just want to vent their anger and get into debates. Others want polite, intellectual discussions where everyone pretends to like each other. And the same person can want a different online experience at different times. Moods change between one session and the next, so it is easy to mistake playful banter for nasty insult. I find myself constantly amazed at how egos can flare up over issues we cannot change (e.g. who is president) in discussions that are only being followed by a handful of posters.

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:16 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]Hell, Roo, I have as much say as anyone here, and things don't always go as *I* would prefer.
[/quote]

Ah, I should add that, in a good number of instances I can recall, this has been a good thing!
;)

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:44 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]'Please all, please none'; we know we aren't going to run SC to the complete liking of anyone, all the time. Hell, Roo, I have as much say as anyone here, and things don't always go as *I* would prefer.

I've never expected any board I ever posted on to run perfectly. In fact, I'd bet pretty long odds that such a thing is impossible![/quote]

I thought I'd just admitted as much.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:56 pm

[quote=""Jobar""]
Jobar;678295 wrote:Hell, Roo, I have as much say as anyone here, and things don't always go as *I* would prefer.
Ah, I should add that, in a good number of instances I can recall, this has been a good thing!
;) [/QUOTE]

And you are the best of a bad lot, Jobar. :D
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:02 pm

Well, thanks, I think. ;)

DMB and RBH were better, and we're all the poorer for not having them any more. :(

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:21 am

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
DrZoidberg;678270 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678257 wrote:
Shake;678219 wrote:
*raises hand*

One of the "old-time II folks" here!
*raises hand*

Me, too. I left IIDB in disgust before it stopped being IIDB, back in 2004. I never partook of Talkfreethought.
Sounds dramatic. Why disgust?
Basically, a disagreement over their moderation and administration style. I was hard banned for repeatedly mouthing off. It was just a rage-quit; I suspect you've seen many. I figured that it would crash and burn, it just took a bit longer than I expected.

In retrospect, my banning then was probably best for all. I stumbled through a number of limited life host sites before spending a fair amount of time at freethought-forum and finally stumbling in here some years back.

Despite the bitching you'll hear from the likes of me, the team here a Sec Cafe is pretty decent and, at least as far as I'm concerned, there's always somebody who can be reasoned with (or raged at). Prevail is another thing entirely.

Welcome aboard.[/QUOTE]

Hmm.... I have little trouble with draconic moderation. I tend to prefer sites that are harshly moderated. a site being interesting is more important than people's feelings being protected. I support people getting temp-banned for mouthing off.

I too have had trouble with the Talkfreethought moderators. For silly things, in my view. But moderating is hard, unpaid work. I have no trouble with it. I also try to avoid feeling self-entitled. Demanding perfection in that job is silly.

And I do think forums need moderating. Otherwise every forum will become an alt-right forum. In arguments where one side has stupid and simplistic views will always win out over nuance and education. Because the stupid side never understands when they've lost a fight.

All I demand from a forum is interesting posts.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Politesse
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Post by Politesse » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:54 pm

Ah, I used to moderate. A complex and demanding job for a volunteer, and a difficult balance to get right for a forum of any sort.
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:25 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
Roo St. Gallus;678272 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678270 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678257 wrote:
*raises hand*

Me, too. I left IIDB in disgust before it stopped being IIDB, back in 2004. I never partook of Talkfreethought.
Sounds dramatic. Why disgust?
Basically, a disagreement over their moderation and administration style. I was hard banned for repeatedly mouthing off. It was just a rage-quit; I suspect you've seen many. I figured that it would crash and burn, it just took a bit longer than I expected.

In retrospect, my banning then was probably best for all. I stumbled through a number of limited life host sites before spending a fair amount of time at freethought-forum and finally stumbling in here some years back.

Despite the bitching you'll hear from the likes of me, the team here a Sec Cafe is pretty decent and, at least as far as I'm concerned, there's always somebody who can be reasoned with (or raged at). Prevail is another thing entirely.

Welcome aboard.
Hmm.... I have little trouble with draconic moderation. I tend to prefer sites that are harshly moderated. a site being interesting is more important than people's feelings being protected. I support people getting temp-banned for mouthing off. [/quote]

I disagree. 'Draconian' has no place in moderation. In any site that considers itself as an attempt to attract insightful, interesting, thought-provoking posters will drive them away with draconian moderation. Reasonable moderation is more to my liking.
I too have had trouble with the Talkfreethought moderators. For silly things, in my view. But moderating is hard, unpaid work. I have no trouble with it. I also try to avoid feeling self-entitled. Demanding perfection in that job is silly.
Agreed. But demanding that your moderators not alienate your potential posters is also a consideration. Otherwise, you end up with the moderators and all their like-thinking friends.
And I do think forums need moderating. Otherwise every forum will become an alt-right forum. In arguments where one side has stupid and simplistic views will always win out over nuance and education. Because the stupid side never understands when they've lost a fight.
So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
All I demand from a forum is interesting posts.
Good luck with that using 'draconian moderation methods'.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:00 pm

[quote=""Politesse""]Ah, I used to moderate. A complex and demanding job for a volunteer, and a difficult balance to get right for a forum of any sort.[/quote]

Likewise, and agreed.

I did three years on an 'historic v. mythic Jesus' discussion site, as a founding moderator. We were attempting to establish is quasi-academic list of those willing to undertake discussion of the orgins of the foundational figure of Christianity, including the hypothesis that the Jesus-figure was a mythic construct. I moderated the likes of Earl Doherty and company.

I gave it up to save my health and sanity.

I may have been too late.
Last edited by Roo St. Gallus on Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:57 am

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
[/quote]

No, I haven't, and by the looks of it so has barely anybody else. Just wait until it grows. If it grows. then the trolls and parasites will come = death

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
All I demand from a forum is interesting posts.
Good luck with that using 'draconian moderation methods'.[/quote]

I'm the member on quite a few forums and all the most interesting ones are strictly moderated. The best ones are by invitation only AND strictly moderated. My experiences are diametrically opposite of yours.

There's few things more tiring than people who think that everybody has a right to their own opinion, so therefore every opinion is as valuable. The world is full of people like that. Mostly stupid people. And those need to be kept out, or in line, for interesting people to join in and share their opinions. It's a problem.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Hermit
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Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:42 am

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
No, I haven't, and by the looks of it so has barely anybody else. Just wait until it grows. If it grows. then the trolls and parasites will come = death[/QUOTE]
Barely anybody else? With 28,855 threads, 1,300,079 posts, 11,832 members and 1,252 active members it certainly dwarfs SC. Having been around for 13 years now, death by trolls and parasites is taking its time.

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:24 pm

[quote=""Hermit""]
DrZoidberg;678341 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
No, I haven't, and by the looks of it so has barely anybody else. Just wait until it grows. If it grows. then the trolls and parasites will come = death
Barely anybody else? With 28,855 threads, 1,300,079 posts, 11,832 members and 1,252 active members it certainly dwarfs SC. Having been around for 13 years now, death by trolls and parasites is taking its time.[/QUOTE]

Trump is it you? Just click on any topic and look at the age of the top posts. Those numbers hardly mean anything. Posts are few and far between.

What matters is how much members are interacting. How much thought they put into their posts. If there's a forum culture of respecting but challenging dissenting views. People just logging in, is nice, but does not a forum make.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Hermit
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Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:52 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
Hermit;678345 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678341 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
No, I haven't, and by the looks of it so has barely anybody else. Just wait until it grows. If it grows. then the trolls and parasites will come = death
Barely anybody else? With 28,855 threads, 1,300,079 posts, 11,832 members and 1,252 active members it certainly dwarfs SC. Having been around for 13 years now, death by trolls and parasites is taking its time.
Trump is it you? Just click on any topic and look at the age of the top posts. Those numbers hardly mean anything. Posts are few and far between.

What matters is how much members are interacting. How much thought they put into their posts. If there's a forum culture of respecting but challenging dissenting views. People just logging in, is nice, but does not a forum make.[/QUOTE]People don't just log in at FF. There were new posts in ten threads over the past twelve hours, compared to five here at SC. As for meaningful interaction, what do you mean? There is less of it based on what? Not having spent any time there yourself?
Last edited by Hermit on Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:05 pm

[quote=""Hermit""]
DrZoidberg;678348 wrote:
Hermit;678345 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678341 wrote: No, I haven't, and by the looks of it so has barely anybody else. Just wait until it grows. If it grows. then the trolls and parasites will come = death
Barely anybody else? With 28,855 threads, 1,300,079 posts, 11,832 members and 1,252 active members it certainly dwarfs SC. Having been around for 13 years now, death by trolls and parasites is taking its time.
Trump is it you? Just click on any topic and look at the age of the top posts. Those numbers hardly mean anything. Posts are few and far between.

What matters is how much members are interacting. How much thought they put into their posts. If there's a forum culture of respecting but challenging dissenting views. People just logging in, is nice, but does not a forum make.
People don't just log in at FF. There were new posts in ten threads over the past twelve hours, compared to five here at SC. As for meaningful interaction, what do you mean? There is less of it based on what? Not having spent any time there yourself?[/QUOTE]

It's not a competition between this forum and that forum. That was never the topic.

The forum is completely open. Anybody can go there and read it. Which I have done. I did not need to register to do that. I base it on going there and clicking around for a bit.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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Hermit
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Post by Hermit » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:22 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
Hermit;678350 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678348 wrote:
Hermit;678345 wrote: Barely anybody else? With 28,855 threads, 1,300,079 posts, 11,832 members and 1,252 active members it certainly dwarfs SC. Having been around for 13 years now, death by trolls and parasites is taking its time.
Trump is it you? Just click on any topic and look at the age of the top posts. Those numbers hardly mean anything. Posts are few and far between.

What matters is how much members are interacting. How much thought they put into their posts. If there's a forum culture of respecting but challenging dissenting views. People just logging in, is nice, but does not a forum make.
People don't just log in at FF. There were new posts in ten threads over the past twelve hours, compared to five here at SC. As for meaningful interaction, what do you mean? There is less of it based on what? Not having spent any time there yourself?
It's not a competition between this forum and that forum. That was never the topic.[/QUOTE]
Who said it was? Not I. I was merely addressing comments you made about a forum you said you had not spent time looking into.

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:56 pm

[quote=""Hermit""]
DrZoidberg;678351 wrote:
Hermit;678350 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678348 wrote: Trump is it you? Just click on any topic and look at the age of the top posts. Those numbers hardly mean anything. Posts are few and far between.

What matters is how much members are interacting. How much thought they put into their posts. If there's a forum culture of respecting but challenging dissenting views. People just logging in, is nice, but does not a forum make.
People don't just log in at FF. There were new posts in ten threads over the past twelve hours, compared to five here at SC. As for meaningful interaction, what do you mean? There is less of it based on what? Not having spent any time there yourself?
It's not a competition between this forum and that forum. That was never the topic.
Who said it was? Not I. I was merely addressing comments you made about a forum you said you had not spent time looking into.[/QUOTE]

Yes...We were just clarifying on your specious claim that, "And I do think forums need moderating. Otherwise every forum will become an alt-right forum. In arguments where one side has stupid and simplistic views will always win out over nuance and education. Because the stupid side never understands when they've lost a fight."

So, since we have now provided evidence that you aren't the polymath you think you are and don't know what the fuck you are talking about, we can just leave it here and move on to something more important, like....I dunno, maybe snow tyres?
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:39 pm

Ahem. Intros is supposed to be one of our most civil forums. Arguments, accusations, and other assorted head-butting go elsewhere.

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Tharmas
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Post by Tharmas » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:12 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.

[/quote]

Thanks for reminding me of FF. I just re-registered there. First joined in Feb 2006 and last visited in 2010. Never posted much, but I remember enjoying it. Recognize a lot of the posters' names from here and there around the various secular internet stops I've made.

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Roo St. Gallus
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Post by Roo St. Gallus » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm

[quote=""Tharmas""]
Roo St. Gallus;678329 wrote: So, you've not spent any time at freethought forum? I've been there since 2004 and they claim 'no moderators'. There are two administrators, and members have been ejected, but it is usually because of patently illegal behavior.
Thanks for reminding me of FF. I just re-registered there. First joined in Feb 2006 and last visited in 2010. Never posted much, but I remember enjoying it. Recognize a lot of the posters' names from here and there around the various secular internet stops I've made.[/QUOTE]

It is not nearly as robust as it was ten years back. But then, few of us are.
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

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Iolo
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Post by Iolo » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:08 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]Hello

I've been active on the Talkfreethought forum since it was Internet Infidels. Since it's future is in question and I enjoy talking with other secularists I thought I'd join this gang.

I'm a Swedish IT guy living in Denmark and working for a company called Dong Energy. Yes really. That's what it's called.

I belong to the group of people who was so shielded from religion growing up that I had no idea what it meant in practice to be religious that I really didn't know anything about it well into becoming an adult. So I can tell you what happens when people like that hear about god theories. Well.. one person like that. I thought it was a preposterous array of hypothesis. That fascinated me. So I started studying religion. Not so much because I wanted to learn about god. But I wanted to learn about god's appeal. I just didn't get it. It's been 25 years now, and I'm none the wiser.

My conclusion is that humans aren't rational and rarely have an interest in being rational. My best evidence against creationism is the theory of creationism itself. Only an idiot or gullible fool would come up with that theory, or support it. Which means that if God created us to be intelligent and rational he/she/it/them failed miserably. The only reason a god could have for making us on purpose stupid would be to cover up the fact that it doesn't exist. Logic![/quote]
Hi Doctor - We meet elsewhere. I'm amazed that anyone not brought up in it should get so interested in 'religion'. I myself was brought up as an Anglican Christian Socialist, and find a great deal of the 'religion' discussed on here extraordinarily archaic. From the beginning, like most of the people I knew, I found the idea of gods not very convincing and was more interested in the sort of behaviour Jesus was recommending, but as an English student found the Authorised Version of the Bible and the Anglican Prayer Book essential to the development and the understanding of the literature I was studying. I find most of the stuff that seems to bother (especially American) freethinkers so hugely scarcely crossed anyone's mind
in the Church I belonged to, and this is what most fascinates me as an historian: I get a much better sense of the world Darwin lived in.
Last edited by Iolo on Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gobeithiaw y ddaw ydd wyf.

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Jobar
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Post by Jobar » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:47 pm

As a US citizen, it's a huge relief to me to watch the steady decline of Christianity and religiosity in general here. I came out as an atheist at age 15, back in 1970; though I never got physically assaulted for it, part of the reason was that I'm a fairly big guy. And that I was even then smart enough to keep fairly quiet about it.

We Americans don't have it anything near as bad as do the doubters in Muslim countries- but it was once a major social debility, and certain death to any political aspirations, if you publicized your atheism. Some of us still bear the emotional scars from that. Even quite recently, atheists here were listed in surveys as the most distrusted minority- it definitely affects our responses to Christianity and other religions.

Iolo, your word 'archaic' does indeed fit most American faiths quite well.

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Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:39 pm

[quote=""Roo St. Gallus""]
Shake;678219 wrote:
Mediancat;677941 wrote:Hello there! Some old-time II folks are around here. Hope you like the place!

Rob
*raises hand*

One of the "old-time II folks" here!
*raises hand*

Me, too. I left IIDB in disgust before it stopped being IIDB, back in 2004. I never partook of Talkfreethought.[/QUOTE]


*raises hand*

Managed to hang in there through the original diaspora (most of it seemed to be occurring in subfora I didn't frequent at the time and so went unnoticed), but then got caught in the detritus and swirled around with the various FRDB messes.
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform - Mark Twain

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Pandora
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Post by Pandora » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:47 pm

[quote=""DrZoidberg""]
Roo St. Gallus;678272 wrote:
DrZoidberg;678270 wrote:
Roo St. Gallus;678257 wrote:
*raises hand*

Me, too. I left IIDB in disgust before it stopped being IIDB, back in 2004. I never partook of Talkfreethought.
Sounds dramatic. Why disgust?
Basically, a disagreement over their moderation and administration style. I was hard banned for repeatedly mouthing off. It was just a rage-quit; I suspect you've seen many. I figured that it would crash and burn, it just took a bit longer than I expected.

In retrospect, my banning then was probably best for all. I stumbled through a number of limited life host sites before spending a fair amount of time at freethought-forum and finally stumbling in here some years back.

Despite the bitching you'll hear from the likes of me, the team here a Sec Cafe is pretty decent and, at least as far as I'm concerned, there's always somebody who can be reasoned with (or raged at). Prevail is another thing entirely.

Welcome aboard.
Hmm.... I have little trouble with draconic moderation. I tend to prefer sites that are harshly moderated. a site being interesting is more important than people's feelings being protected. I support people getting temp-banned for mouthing off.

I too have had trouble with the Talkfreethought moderators. For silly things, in my view. But moderating is hard, unpaid work. I have no trouble with it. I also try to avoid feeling self-entitled. Demanding perfection in that job is silly.

And I do think forums need moderating. Otherwise every forum will become an alt-right forum. In arguments where one side has stupid and simplistic views will always win out over nuance and education. Because the stupid side never understands when they've lost a fight.

All I demand from a forum is interesting posts.[/QUOTE]

:D There are a couple of precedents for the other side of that. Rants & Raves (now deceased) followed by TalkRational (R&R's illegitimate love child) had almost no moderation, but are most definitely NOT alt-right. Pretty much full on Ctrl-Left.

Don't get me wrong though - I enjoyed TR back when I used to be able to connect to it... For it's purpose. TR was pretty much the local pub in a small town, where there was likely to be a fist fight once a month, but most people still got along and everyone knew the words to all the songs on the jukebox. SC was the corner cafe in a nice suburb, where you get the regulars having passionate debates that sometimes involve throwing biscotti at each other or dumping the cream over someone's head, but most of the time it's just laid back discussion.
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform - Mark Twain

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MattShizzle
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Post by MattShizzle » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:24 pm

At one time TR was similar to SC, with somewhat less moderation. Even RnR at one time wasn't as bad as TR became. Definitely neither were ever alt-right. In fact, pretty sure any alt-right type would be quickly driven away like most everyone else would.

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DrZoidberg
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Post by DrZoidberg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:16 am

[quote=""Iolo""]
DrZoidberg;677858 wrote:Hello

I've been active on the Talkfreethought forum since it was Internet Infidels. Since it's future is in question and I enjoy talking with other secularists I thought I'd join this gang.

I'm a Swedish IT guy living in Denmark and working for a company called Dong Energy. Yes really. That's what it's called.

I belong to the group of people who was so shielded from religion growing up that I had no idea what it meant in practice to be religious that I really didn't know anything about it well into becoming an adult. So I can tell you what happens when people like that hear about god theories. Well.. one person like that. I thought it was a preposterous array of hypothesis. That fascinated me. So I started studying religion. Not so much because I wanted to learn about god. But I wanted to learn about god's appeal. I just didn't get it. It's been 25 years now, and I'm none the wiser.

My conclusion is that humans aren't rational and rarely have an interest in being rational. My best evidence against creationism is the theory of creationism itself. Only an idiot or gullible fool would come up with that theory, or support it. Which means that if God created us to be intelligent and rational he/she/it/them failed miserably. The only reason a god could have for making us on purpose stupid would be to cover up the fact that it doesn't exist. Logic!
Hi Doctor - We meet elsewhere. I'm amazed that anyone not brought up in it should get so interested in 'religion'. I myself was brought up as an Anglican Christian Socialist, and find a great deal of the 'religion' discussed on here extraordinarily archaic. From the beginning, like most of the people I knew, I found the idea of gods not very convincing and was more interested in the sort of behaviour Jesus was recommending, but as an English student found the Authorised Version of the Bible and the Anglican Prayer Book essential to the development and the understanding of the literature I was studying. I find most of the stuff that seems to bother (especially American) freethinkers so hugely scarcely crossed anyone's mind
in the Church I belonged to, and this is what most fascinates me as an historian: I get a much better sense of the world Darwin lived in.[/QUOTE]

What really peaked my interest was when somebody had the good sense to invent the Internet and I got in contact with a bunch of loony evangelicals who I could actually talk to and get answers. They, no longer, were just abstract entities in faraway lands that I couldn't understand.

It fascinated me that they could be so incredibly convinced of their beliefs in spite of them being completely nuts.

In Sweden nobody discusses religion much. It's a non-subject. My parents were hippies so I was surrounded by Hindu symbols and religious icons. I have no idea if my parents believed in any god or not. We never discussed it. So I still don't know why they had the statues. It was probably just interior decorating. It still fascinated me.
"Sorry, you must have been boring"
/Dr Zoidberg

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