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Old 14 Nov 2017, 12:55 PM   #680223 / #1
Greatest I am
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Default How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 01:24 PM   #680227 / #2
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If the definition of "good" is taking actions that are approved by God, how can any actions of God not be "good"?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:00 PM   #680230 / #3
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Quick note: The reason Buddhists are taught that if they ever see the Buddha, kill him, is because the Buddha can not be seen by humans, so if you do then you know it’s a false Buddha (i.e., someone claiming to be what they are not) and that person should be killed for impersonating the Buddha in an attempt to deceive you.

As to your question, aside from Ozy’s devastating point, what do you mean by “moral”? If it is not “anything that god approves of” then what metric are you employing? If it is something that humans are capable of measuring (and it must be if we are to have “free will”), then Jesus is one of the most immoral bastards on the books.

At best he steals the golden rule as the basis of his “message” while at the same time preaching a slave’s mentality; to be thankful of one’s suffering and to not just do nothing against it, but to actively seek out further oppression (turn the other cheek; avoid legal entanglements; render unto Caesar; etc), not necessarily because that is the moral thing to do, but because it means you are “blessed” by Yahweh and will therefore (presumably) reap cosmic rewards. The meek will inherit the earth, after all; not the brave or the bold or the strong of character.

He was instructing oppressed people not to rise up against injustice and change their lot in life, but instead to embrace it for it meant they were special in God’s eyes and will win anything off the top shelf (once they’re dead and it no longer matters). It is all the more evil of a “message” when you consider he was just a man, not a divine being and certainly not a god that had trifurcated in order to incarnate into flesh.

Imagine a guy named, say, Lou going around Auschwitz in 1944 telling his fellow Jews not to hate the Nazis—but to embrace them and give them both your children when they take only one to the ovens—because what they’re doing will mean you are blessed by Yahweh.

Like a false Buddha, such a man should be killed for teaching such pro-Nazi bullshit, yes?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 03:23 PM   #680234 / #4
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I was asking 1ICrying that very question not long ago, concerning the actions of God in the Old Testament.

Quote:
How do Christians reconcile their merciful, omniscient and omnipotent God with this monster depicted in the Old Testament? One solution is simply to ditch the Old Testament, as many early Christians did, and more recent deists have done. Another solution is to claim that the God of the Old Testament who created the world is not a supreme god, but a flawed subsidiary god — this was the solution adopted by Gnostics, Manichæans, Cathars and Jehovah's Witnesses. A third is to claim that God showed to humankind a face that matched their stage of human development, but this is not a satisfactory solution when the pagan Greeks were far in advance of God's chosen people in their understanding of ethics, morality, philosophy and so on. Another problem for this last explanation is that human mental abilities have changed little in the last 5,000 years, so ancient peoples were as capable as modern Christians in appreciating the God of the modern theologians.

The remaining option is to ignore the facts. The offending passages are not read in church, God's many failings are not taught to children, and awkward questions are dismissed with the answer that it is a divine mystery. The same carefully selected passages are cited over and over again to portray an acceptable picture of God. So it is that most Christians have not the slightest inkling that their God was ever anything like the one depicted in the Old Testament.
No answer from 1I, so far...
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 11:47 PM   #680278 / #5
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
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If the definition of "good" is taking actions that are approved by God,
It isn't.

Quote:
how can any actions of God not be "good"?
When we do as the bible asks and decide it is not.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 11:59 PM   #680279 / #6
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Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
Quote:
Quick note: The reason Buddhists are taught that if they ever see the Buddha, kill him, is because the Buddha can not be seen by humans, so if you do then you know it’s a false Buddha (i.e., someone claiming to be what they are not) and that person should be killed for impersonating the Buddha in an attempt to deceive you.

As to your question, aside from Ozy’s devastating point, what do you mean by “moral”?
I did not see a devastating point.

I do not need or want to introduce a definition other than what the dictionaries define that word as. Stick to English and I doubt that we will disagree on whatever dictionary definition you go with.


Quote:
If it is not “anything that god approves of” then what metric are you employing?
See above and you might look at what I answered to the devastating point. I hope I do not have to define good for you. If I do, dictionary.

Quote:
If it is something that humans are capable of measuring (and it must be if we are to have “free will”), then Jesus is one of the most immoral bastards on the books.
The Rome created one, I partially agree.

The more Gnostic Christian one is quite good. He speaks like this.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That Jesus frees us from religion and it's immoral dogma while the first wants to slave us to it and governments.
Quote:
At best he steals the golden rule as the basis of his “message” while at the same time preaching a slave’s mentality; to be thankful of one’s suffering and to not just do nothing against it, but to actively seek out further oppression (turn the other cheek; avoid legal entanglements; render unto Caesar; etc), not necessarily because that is the moral thing to do, but because it means you are “blessed” by Yahweh and will therefore (presumably) reap cosmic rewards. The meek will inherit the earth, after all; not the brave or the bold or the strong of character.
That's the Rome created Jesus and I agree that he is not good.

Quote:
He was instructing oppressed people not to rise up against injustice and change their lot in life, but instead to embrace it for it meant they were special in God’s eyes and will win anything off the top shelf (once they’re dead and it no longer matters). It is all the more evil of a “message” when you consider he was just a man, not a divine being and certainly not a god that had trifurcated in order to incarnate into flesh.

Imagine a guy named, say, Lou going around Auschwitz in 1944 telling his fellow Jews not to hate the Nazis—but to embrace them and give them both your children when they take only one to the ovens—because what they’re doing will mean you are blessed by Yahweh.

Like a false Buddha, such a man should be killed for teaching such pro-Nazi bullshit, yes?
No. Freedom of speech.

We do not want to embrace murder the way religions have done.

Regards
DL
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 12:02 AM   #680280 / #7
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Originally Posted by Jobar View Post
I was asking 1ICrying that very question not long ago, concerning the actions of God in the Old Testament.

Quote:
How do Christians reconcile their merciful, omniscient and omnipotent God with this monster depicted in the Old Testament? One solution is simply to ditch the Old Testament, as many early Christians did, and more recent deists have done. Another solution is to claim that the God of the Old Testament who created the world is not a supreme god, but a flawed subsidiary god — this was the solution adopted by Gnostics, Manichæans, Cathars and Jehovah's Witnesses. A third is to claim that God showed to humankind a face that matched their stage of human development, but this is not a satisfactory solution when the pagan Greeks were far in advance of God's chosen people in their understanding of ethics, morality, philosophy and so on. Another problem for this last explanation is that human mental abilities have changed little in the last 5,000 years, so ancient peoples were as capable as modern Christians in appreciating the God of the modern theologians.

The remaining option is to ignore the facts. The offending passages are not read in church, God's many failings are not taught to children, and awkward questions are dismissed with the answer that it is a divine mystery. The same carefully selected passages are cited over and over again to portray an acceptable picture of God. So it is that most Christians have not the slightest inkling that their God was ever anything like the one depicted in the Old Testament.
No answer from 1I, so far...
Exactly why I wrote the O.P.

When the going gets tough and honesty is required, theists vanish.

Regards
DL
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 02:16 AM   #680283 / #8
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In fairness, not all of them do. Some may try giving bad excuses and flawed arguments, and some may even admit it when they are shown their arguments are flawed.

And some few will be convinced that they were mistaken to believe, and become an atheist or agnostic. Not often, but I've seen it happen.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 02:23 AM   #680284 / #9
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If you believe in God you understand what God actually is and from that you come to the understanding everything God does is moral and just.

It's the same idea of a pottery maker who can do what he wants with the pottery he makes. No other person can do that because no other person made the pottery. The argument that has been drawn here is based on the perspective of the pottery, itself second guessing they potter who made them and arguing that the potter needs to conform to the standards that the potter set for the pottery. If this makes any sense.

You've got to understand the fact that Christian's believe that God made laws for man to control the interactions between men. He, himself is not bound by those laws by vertue of being the creator of everything and has the ability to do anything and everything with what he created.

I would suggest that you take this up with a Christian because asking us about this is meerly preaching to the choir.

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Old 15 Nov 2017, 02:49 AM   #680288 / #10
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Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobar View Post
I was asking 1ICrying that very question not long ago, concerning the actions of God in the Old Testament.

Quote:
How do Christians reconcile their merciful, omniscient and omnipotent God with this monster depicted in the Old Testament? One solution is simply to ditch the Old Testament, as many early Christians did, and more recent deists have done. Another solution is to claim that the God of the Old Testament who created the world is not a supreme god, but a flawed subsidiary god — this was the solution adopted by Gnostics, Manichæans, Cathars and Jehovah's Witnesses. A third is to claim that God showed to humankind a face that matched their stage of human development, but this is not a satisfactory solution when the pagan Greeks were far in advance of God's chosen people in their understanding of ethics, morality, philosophy and so on. Another problem for this last explanation is that human mental abilities have changed little in the last 5,000 years, so ancient peoples were as capable as modern Christians in appreciating the God of the modern theologians.

The remaining option is to ignore the facts. The offending passages are not read in church, God's many failings are not taught to children, and awkward questions are dismissed with the answer that it is a divine mystery. The same carefully selected passages are cited over and over again to portray an acceptable picture of God. So it is that most Christians have not the slightest inkling that their God was ever anything like the one depicted in the Old Testament.
No answer from 1I, so far...
Exactly why I wrote the O.P.

When the going gets tough and honesty is required, theists vanish.

Regards
DL
Um. I suggest you take this to a Christian site and see how well they vanish.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 03:00 AM   #680291 / #11
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It's been my experience and observation that most believer's boards simply do not allow any serious challenges to their beliefs from skeptics. See for instance my thread Joined Christian Forums! from a couple of years ago. They didn't even have a forum where frankly atheistic arguments were allowed!

And even so, I was told by former members of CF that arguments there had produced numerous deconverts.

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Old 15 Nov 2017, 04:11 AM   #680298 / #12
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Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
...Ozy’s devastating point...
I did not see a devastating point.
This one?
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If the definition of "good" is taking actions that are approved by God, how can any actions of God not be "good"?
It's called "apologetics" and religions, particularly Christianity, are soaked in it.

Check out William Lane Craig, a prominent US theologian and Christian apologist, for example, who argues exactly that. He goes so far as saying that genocide is OK if it is ordered by God. Why? Because "God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill." For this reason, Lane goes on to say in a followup article, even in the case of ordering genocide "God has the moral right to issue such commands and that He wronged no one in doing so." So, yeah, no matter what god does, he cannot be accused of any wrong-doing.



While Lane sounds extreme, apologetics are common throughout Christian history, though most of them take a different tack: What we perceive as god's injustice, cruelty, brutality or mere imperfection is in actual fact wrought for a variety of very good reasons. We can work some of them out ourselves. The tsunamis, floods and earthquakes are invariably the result of man's sinfulness. So is the genocide of the Canaanites. The story of Abraham and Isaac is a test of faith. God created the dreaded shipworm to provide a livelihood for shipwrights and carpenters. The list continues interminably. God always wins.

And lastly, whenever we do regard something god has done as immoral we are mistaken because he had very good reason for doing whatever we object to, but his wisdom is beyond our ken. We just have to have faith in god's superior wisdom when it is inscrutable to us. Faith is the first and last refuge of unreason.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 06:36 AM   #680303 / #13
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Shiva running after Mohini, Kartikeya, Rama killing the monkey King Bali, Rama exiling a pregnant Sita



The religious have their explanations. Mohini Avatara was Lord Vishnu's 'leela' (play). It also resulted in the birth of Shiva's son, Kartikeya, which was necessity for Gods to fight against demons. The sperm ejaculated by Shiva passed from Agni, the Fire-God, to Mother Ganges and finally to the Pleiades. But whatever, it was not a very Godly act - running after a beautiful woman in passion. One cannot wholly blame Shiva because of the divine beauty of Mohini. The explanation for Rama's killing of Bali does not satisfy many. Exile of Sita is explained as a duty for Rama as king. Again many blame Rama for not standing up for Sita.
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.. what do you mean by “moral”? If it is not “anything that god approves of” then what metric are you employing? ..
In India, it is "what society approves of"? Hindus do not hesitate to point the misdeeds of their Gods. Good or bad, both types of actions are beacons for Hindus. For example, Krishna's lifting of the chariot wheel against Bhishma (he had promised not to take part in the battle but there was no other way to stop Bhishma's charge) or persuading Yudhishthira to say that Ashwatthama (son of Drona, the teacher of Kauravas and Pandavas, the person leading the Kaurava army at that time; as well as an elephant) is dead, knowing that Drona loved his son dearly and would loose interest in the battle if he comes to know that his son has died. Both actions were against the ethics of war.

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Old 15 Nov 2017, 08:16 AM   #680308 / #14
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It's been my experience and observation that most believer's boards simply do not allow any serious challenges to their beliefs from skeptics. See for instance my thread Joined Christian Forums! from a couple of years ago. They didn't even have a forum where frankly atheistic arguments were allowed!

And even so, I was told by former members of CF that arguments there had produced numerous deconverts.
There are more religious sites out there than just Christian forums. Check out this link.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/fo...-forums?page=3


I was also apart of Christian Forums and walked away from there long ago. The place is more like an adolescent food fight than a debate site because there is very little actions the moderators wouldn't allow, even those who were just in there to snipe at people. Atleast that was the way it was when I was there.

Try this one on for size. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/

This is the one that put me on administrative revue for going off on some people. They have a open are at their front door to debate anyone about anything and they are extremely serious about their faith. They don't back down and they are nice to a fault with everyone.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 12:22 PM   #680312 / #15
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If the definition of "good" is taking actions that are approved by God,
It isn't.
Your original statement was "I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud." So your definition of "good" (whatever that may be) is completely irrelevant. The only relevant definition is that of those you are trying to understand.

Though of course, this wasn't really an attempt to understand, was it? It was really just an attempt to push your own philosophy.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 02:34 PM   #680321 / #16
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Try this one on for size. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/

This is the one that put me on administrative revue for going off on some people. They have a open are at their front door to debate anyone about anything and they are extremely serious about their faith. They don't back down and they are nice to a fault with everyone.
Thank you, jm. I may join that one, and see what reaction I get from politely defending atheism/pantheism.

I recall a board called Thinking Baptists, from more than ten years ago. That one was polite and tolerant- but I found that atheists there were often simply ignored.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 04:28 PM   #680334 / #17
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Try this one on for size. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/

This is the one that put me on administrative revue for going off on some people. They have a open are at their front door to debate anyone about anything and they are extremely serious about their faith. They don't back down and they are nice to a fault with everyone.
Thank you, jm. I may join that one, and see what reaction I get from politely defending atheism/pantheism.

I recall a board called Thinking Baptists, from more than ten years ago. That one was polite and tolerant- but I found that atheists there were often simply ignored.
Well, I just registered there, but and haven't posted yet. I am going to post about me being transgender and see what happens. I don't want to mess with them just to mess with them, but I wonder what they will say.

From what I've gathered there are huge differences between a Christian and a Republican that claims Christianity. I think we can see that in this Roy Moore character.

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Old 15 Nov 2017, 04:30 PM   #680336 / #18
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If the definition of "good" is taking actions that are approved by God,
It isn't.
Your original statement was "I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud." So your definition of "good" (whatever that may be) is completely irrelevant. The only relevant definition is that of those you are trying to understand.

Though of course, this wasn't really an attempt to understand, was it? It was really just an attempt to push your own philosophy.
Couldn't have said it better. Thank you sir!
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 05:14 PM   #680339 / #19
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Quick note: The reason Buddhists are taught that if they ever see the Buddha, kill him, is because the Buddha can not be seen by humans, so if you do then you know it’s a false Buddha (i.e., someone claiming to be what they are not) and that person should be killed for impersonating the Buddha in an attempt to deceive you.

As to your question, aside from Ozy’s devastating point, what do you mean by “moral”?
I did not see a devastating point.
The Judeo/Christian concept of a god is a being that cannot do anything immoral; that anything we would perceive as being immoral is actually part of an ineffable plan that by definition must ultimately be moral. Thus it is only our perceptions that are at fault; never the god(hood).

Quote:
I do not need or want to introduce a definition other than what the dictionaries define that word as. Stick to English and I doubt that we will disagree on whatever dictionary definition you go with.
So:

Quote:
1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.
As you can see, they relate only to humans, so how would you propose we apply them to a god (particulalry one that is claimed to have Omni-capabilities and is said to be ineffable)?

Quote:
Quote:
If it is not “anything that god approves of” then what metric are you employing?
See above and you might look at what I answered to the devastating point.
You didn’t answer anything in regard to the “devastating point;” you just denied that it was devastating.

Quote:
I hope I do not have to define good for you.
As it applies to a god? Yes. Yes, you do. Take, for example, something cataclysmic like the flood. Assuming any such global flood occurred and was caused by a god as claimed in the Bible, then from any human’s perspective (aside, I guess, from Noah and his immediate family), that was objectively bad. Such a god had the power to simply forgive everyone or remove whatever defect it created us in the first place (and should have known would obtain), etc., etc., etc. Plus, what exactly was everyone’s crime that capital punishment (in a cruel and unusual manner no less) was the only action available to such a being? We are told in the first book of the whole damn thing that the only sin this god can’t abide is disobedience. So are we to just assume that millions of innocent people (including infants) all simultaneously and with equal transgression disobeyed Yahweh?

Now look at it from Yahwey’s position. Oh, you can’t, because it’s ineffable.

Quote:
The Rome created one, I partially agree.

The more Gnostic Christian one is quite good. He speaks like this.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That Jesus frees us from religion and it's immoral dogma while the first wants to slave us to it and governments.
Uh huh. So your Jesus “frees” us from religion by invoking that religion and in doing so instantiating the same god character that has the same Omni-capabilities that enslaves us to its dogma.
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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:27 PM   #680426 / #20
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In fairness, not all of them do. Some may try giving bad excuses and flawed arguments, and some may even admit it when they are shown their arguments are flawed.

And some few will be convinced that they were mistaken to believe, and become an atheist or agnostic. Not often, but I've seen it happen.
All true and I can attest to your last. Most who post are more in the fundamental class so I try to address the lurkers more than my interlocutor.

I have noted though that the numbers of believers is shrinking more and more over time and that the fundamentals and their poor manners and arguments end in doing my work of discrediting the mainstream religions for me.

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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:32 PM   #680429 / #21
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If you believe in God you understand what God actually is and from that you come to the understanding everything God does is moral and just.

It's the same idea of a pottery maker who can do what he wants with the pottery he makes. No other person can do that because no other person made the pottery. The argument that has been drawn here is based on the perspective of the pottery, itself second guessing they potter who made them and arguing that the potter needs to conform to the standards that the potter set for the pottery. If this makes any sense.

You've got to understand the fact that Christian's believe that God made laws for man to control the interactions between men. He, himself is not bound by those laws by vertue of being the creator of everything and has the ability to do anything and everything with what he created.

I would suggest that you take this up with a Christian because asking us about this is meerly preaching to the choir.
I hear you and have had that foolish potter scenario used on me quite often.

I just ask them why the potter create a pot with a leaky hole in it if he did not want it to leak.

Then they use their free will card and I bring up Satan and his God given ability to deceive the whole world. If that does not shut them up, I have a longer post on free will that tends to shut them down and has them slamming the door on their way out.

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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:37 PM   #680430 / #22
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I was asking 1ICrying that very question not long ago, concerning the actions of God in the Old Testament.

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How do Christians reconcile their merciful, omniscient and omnipotent God with this monster depicted in the Old Testament? One solution is simply to ditch the Old Testament, as many early Christians did, and more recent deists have done. Another solution is to claim that the God of the Old Testament who created the world is not a supreme god, but a flawed subsidiary god — this was the solution adopted by Gnostics, Manichæans, Cathars and Jehovah's Witnesses. A third is to claim that God showed to humankind a face that matched their stage of human development, but this is not a satisfactory solution when the pagan Greeks were far in advance of God's chosen people in their understanding of ethics, morality, philosophy and so on. Another problem for this last explanation is that human mental abilities have changed little in the last 5,000 years, so ancient peoples were as capable as modern Christians in appreciating the God of the modern theologians.

The remaining option is to ignore the facts. The offending passages are not read in church, God's many failings are not taught to children, and awkward questions are dismissed with the answer that it is a divine mystery. The same carefully selected passages are cited over and over again to portray an acceptable picture of God. So it is that most Christians have not the slightest inkling that their God was ever anything like the one depicted in the Old Testament.
No answer from 1I, so far...
Exactly why I wrote the O.P.

When the going gets tough and honesty is required, theists vanish.

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DL
Um. I suggest you take this to a Christian site and see how well they vanish.
I have and few believers are fool enough to venture forth.

That or as seems to be the trend, they have just vanished because they cannot seem to win arguments.

There are good reasons why Christianity and Islam used the sword instead of good moral arguments to grow their religions. They did not have good moral arguments.

It is nice to be a Gnostic Christian these days as they cannot use their Inquisitions to silence us the way they did in the past.

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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:41 PM   #680433 / #23
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It's been my experience and observation that most believer's boards simply do not allow any serious challenges to their beliefs from skeptics. See for instance my thread Joined Christian Forums! from a couple of years ago. They didn't even have a forum where frankly atheistic arguments were allowed!

And even so, I was told by former members of CF that arguments there had produced numerous deconverts.
I hear you. I have been banned by at least 2 places even before I could post anything just because of my avatar's name.

Even today, I cannot find a Catholic or fundamental site that will tolerate me, even if I put on my most gentle and loving post, if it does against their dogma.

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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:47 PM   #680434 / #24
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If you believe in God you understand what God actually is and from that you come to the understanding everything God does is moral and just.

It's the same idea of a pottery maker who can do what he wants with the pottery he makes. No other person can do that because no other person made the pottery. The argument that has been drawn here is based on the perspective of the pottery, itself second guessing they potter who made them and arguing that the potter needs to conform to the standards that the potter set for the pottery. If this makes any sense.

You've got to understand the fact that Christian's believe that God made laws for man to control the interactions between men. He, himself is not bound by those laws by virtue of being the creator of everything and has the ability to do anything and everything with what he created.

I would suggest that you take this up with a Christian because asking us about this is meerly preaching to the choir.
I hear you and have had that foolish potter scenario used on me quite often.

I just ask them why the potter create a pot with a leaky hole in it if he did not want it to leak.

Then they use their free will card and I bring up Satan and his God given ability to deceive the whole world. If that does not shut them up, I have a longer post on free will that tends to shut them down and has them slamming the door on their way out.

Regards
DL
I'll will ignore your pinion of foolish as you have not stated anything in your remarks to connect that analogy to foolishness.

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I just ask them why the potter create a pot with a leaky hole in it if he did not want it to leak.
Why would you assume that if he created a pot with a hole in it that he didn't expect it to leak. By leaking, I assume you mean flawed and what better way of bringing out the milk of human kindness than to have a person in need being comforted by those who can help. Don't Christians talk about God's love and Jesus saying Love thy neighbor as you do yourself.

Free will, I do believe has to do with God not being a Micromanager of man's daily life. Satan is another matter entirely. I suggest you do a little more research on this before talking about shutting people down. I have no love for many who claim to be Christian, but I know that many cease to argue with people they assume they can't get through to. Maybe they have resorted to praying for you.
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Old 16 Nov 2017, 09:55 PM   #680436 / #25
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I have a longer post on free will that tends to shut them down and has them slamming the door on their way out.
Please post (in another thread if you prefer).
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