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Old 11 Nov 2017, 08:54 PM   #679958 / #126
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It's just all so complicated. I think we should devolve back to amoebas, so we can do away with all this sex and gender shit.

And yes, I know that "devolve" isn't a word. "Evolve in the opposite direction, toward lesser complexity" then.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 04:36 AM   #679979 / #127
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Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally. Source: (Blackless et al 2000, Am. Jo. of Human Biology) It may be a bit higher, and depends somewhat on what you consider to be an intersex birth, as there are many conditions that produce intersex characteristics but not visibly ambiguous sex. An important distinction to an anthropologist, and to my point in the referenced post, but perhaps not to a biologist.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 12:04 PM   #679997 / #128
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Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally.
Oops. I missed reading the decimal point. Sorry about that.

So the UN figure is at the high end of the range, rather than yours. The actual figure does not matter to me. What does matter is that people, regardless of how many of them there are, who do not fit neatly in the broadly accepted binary scheme of things, are not made to suffer for it.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 04:54 PM   #680003 / #129
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Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally.
Oops. I missed reading the decimal point. Sorry about that.

So the UN figure is at the high end of the range, rather than yours. The actual figure does not matter to me. What does matter is that people, regardless of how many of them there are, who do not fit neatly in the broadly accepted binary scheme of things, are not made to suffer for it.
Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 06:05 PM   #680014 / #130
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Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
Tell someone who is into sanctimonious empowerment crap. π%

Also, teatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 07:45 PM   #680037 / #131
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Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally.
Oops. I missed reading the decimal point. Sorry about that.

So the UN figure is at the high end of the range, rather than yours. The actual figure does not matter to me. What does matter is that people, regardless of how many of them there are, who do not fit neatly in the broadly accepted binary scheme of things, are not made to suffer for it.
Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
Um...'intersex' as I understood it, were those with actual physical variations from the bimorphic norm. We are talking genital ambiguity, hormonal imbalances, and genetic anomalies, as well as psychological variances. I'm unclear as to how treating these individuals for gender dysphoria addresses whatever problem it is you are perceiving. Can you clarify what treatments you have in mind, for which 'intersex' individuals, rather than sanctimoniously empower them with crap....or, is it empower them with sanctimonious crap?

Are there even effective 'treatments' available for those with intersex issues?

You seem to have all the answers, so enlighten us.
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Old 12 Nov 2017, 08:00 PM   #680038 / #132
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Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally.
Oops. I missed reading the decimal point. Sorry about that.

So the UN figure is at the high end of the range, rather than yours. The actual figure does not matter to me. What does matter is that people, regardless of how many of them there are, who do not fit neatly in the broadly accepted binary scheme of things, are not made to suffer for it.
Exactly.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 05:20 AM   #680082 / #133
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Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
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Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Politesse puts the number of people born that are intersex at 5%.
I stated, and maintain, that the number is closer to 0.5% globally.
Oops. I missed reading the decimal point. Sorry about that.

So the UN figure is at the high end of the range, rather than yours. The actual figure does not matter to me. What does matter is that people, regardless of how many of them there are, who do not fit neatly in the broadly accepted binary scheme of things, are not made to suffer for it.
Exactly.
That pretty much covers the whole thing, doesn't it? Whatever a person's physiology and/or orientation, leave them the fuck alone.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 12:04 PM   #680093 / #134
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Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
Also, teatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business.
When in a position of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about, the best course of action is to shut your piehole.

Do you really think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?

Really?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 12:10 PM   #680094 / #135
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Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
Also, teatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business.
When in a position of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about, the best course of action is to shut your piehole.

Do you really think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?

Really?
How about not feeding the trolls. Just check out "a certain posters" other posts. Nearly all of it triggering stuff.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 01:08 PM   #680104 / #136
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Treatment for gender dysphoria is a much more effective solution than sanctimonious empowerment crap we have today. 41%.
Also, teatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business.
When in a position of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about, the best course of action is to shut your piehole.

Do you really think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?

Really?
Who are you responding to? I certainly do not think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 01:30 PM   #680107 / #137
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I quoted you, didn't I?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 01:33 PM   #680109 / #138
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I quoted you, didn't I?
Yes, you have, but your reply has no connection with what you quoted. What the fuck gave you the impression that I think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 02:38 PM   #680117 / #139
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Some transgender people have a position about gender identity that I consider very illogical.

In my mind, being transgender is having a psychological gender identity different from one's body's gender. Thus, a transwoman is anatomically male and psychologically female and a transman is anatomically female and psychologically male.

The illogical part IMO is considering one's entire body to have one's psychological gender. Like some transwomen claiming that penises can be female if their owners are psychologically female.

Adopting this convention would cause a lot of confusion in discussions of genitalia and other sexually-differentiated features, and it is also contrary to what many transgender people try to do: give themselves body features that are more typical of their psychological gender. That often requires rather expensive surgery.
I think you're doing a classic cognitive mistake, when discussing this. Once we've opened up for transgenderism, there's not two genders, or even three or four genders. There's a billion various variants. There's many ways it can feel wrong, and many ways to fix it.

Your mistake is in thinking binary, and trying to shoehorn their theory (well.. theories... there's a bunch) into your binary model.
The problem with that is, biological sex *is* binary. Male and female, sperm and egg, penis and vagina- all the megafauna on Earth, including us, reproduce bisexually (in the sense of 'having two sexes'.) If we accept that gender is inextricably related to sexuality in the biological sense- and I don't see how it can be otherwise- then there is a natural tendency to try to fit gender to that basic duality.

Which is not to say that gender divides up cleanly into two; we all know it does not. But I don't see how we can understand gender, or deal with its complications, without accepting that its deepest origin is binary.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 03:10 PM   #680120 / #140
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I quoted you, didn't I?
Yes, you have, but your reply has no connection with what you quoted. What the fuck gave you the impression that I think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?
Would you like me to quote you again?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 03:22 PM   #680121 / #141
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I quoted you, didn't I?
Yes, you have, but your reply has no connection with what you quoted. What the fuck gave you the impression that I think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?
Would you like me to quote you again?
To be honest, I, perhaps mistakenly, thought you were saying something akin to what hermit said, about social pressure being at least a factor, here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheanne View Post
You can only say, "I feel happier/unhappier when I discard the trappings of B and assume those of A."
Which is why I asked you this:

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So....are you saying...that if (hypothetically) someone, someone who we might currently call transgender (and who themselves might under everyday circumstances say that they feel they are/were in the wrong body, Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner for example) was born on a desert island....and either there was nobody else there or those that were there applied no gender labels or what have you....that there would be no 'crisis', no feeling of being in the wrong body?
(and what do you mean by 'trappings'? They sound a bit like like social constructions to me).

Obviously, it might be wrong to say that there is only one type of factor, be it social pressure or any other.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 03:47 PM   #680124 / #142
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Please read the wiki on Gender Dysphoria.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 03:49 PM   #680125 / #143
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I quoted you, didn't I?
Yes, you have, but your reply has no connection with what you quoted. What the fuck gave you the impression that I think trans men/women want to have their tits/penises cut off because of social pressure?
Would you like me to quote you again?
That won't be necessary. If, however, you explained what you find so objectionable about saying "treatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business", I'd appreciate that.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 04:12 PM   #680127 / #144
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"treatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business"
I disagree- even if no one were prejudiced against any hue of the gender spectrum, I expect that there would still be individuals that needed treatment, or at least counseling, to help them with their own internal uncertainties and discomforts.

I don't know if that's Val's objection, but it may be.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 04:58 PM   #680136 / #145
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"treatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business"
I disagree- even if no one were prejudiced against any hue of the gender spectrum, I expect that there would still be individuals that needed treatment, or at least counseling, to help them with their own internal uncertainties and discomforts.
In the absence of any negative value judgements, aspersions and so on, where would those uncertainties and discomforts come from? I expect that intersexuals would have no more of them than people who are born double_jointed or with complete heterochromia iridum.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 05:11 PM   #680138 / #146
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Please read the wiki on Gender Dysphoria.
Ok I did. It says:

"Researchers disagree about the nature of distress and impairment in people with GID. Some authors have suggested that people with GID suffer because they are stigmatized and victimized; and that, if society had less strict gender divisions, transsexual people would suffer less."
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 11:56 PM   #680165 / #147
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Some transgender people have a position about gender identity that I consider very illogical.

In my mind, being transgender is having a psychological gender identity different from one's body's gender. Thus, a transwoman is anatomically male and psychologically female and a transman is anatomically female and psychologically male.

The illogical part IMO is considering one's entire body to have one's psychological gender. Like some transwomen claiming that penises can be female if their owners are psychologically female.

Adopting this convention would cause a lot of confusion in discussions of genitalia and other sexually-differentiated features, and it is also contrary to what many transgender people try to do: give themselves body features that are more typical of their psychological gender. That often requires rather expensive surgery.
I think you're doing a classic cognitive mistake, when discussing this. Once we've opened up for transgenderism, there's not two genders, or even three or four genders. There's a billion various variants. There's many ways it can feel wrong, and many ways to fix it.

Your mistake is in thinking binary, and trying to shoehorn their theory (well.. theories... there's a bunch) into your binary model.
The problem with that is, biological sex *is* binary. Male and female, sperm and egg, penis and vagina- all the megafauna on Earth, including us, reproduce bisexually (in the sense of 'having two sexes'.) If we accept that gender is inextricably related to sexuality in the biological sense- and I don't see how it can be otherwise- then there is a natural tendency to try to fit gender to that basic duality.

Which is not to say that gender divides up cleanly into two; we all know it does not. But I don't see how we can understand gender, or deal with its complications, without accepting that its deepest origin is binary.
Think of it as a bi-modal distribution with extremely low variance.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 01:36 AM   #680171 / #148
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....

Think of it as a bi-modal distribution with extremely low variance.
[nods]

I'm not forgetting the fact that gender is not just biological, but psychological. Brain development and environment are factors.

But that still results in a generally U shaped distribution, with most individuals located at one of the poles, or very near.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:21 AM   #680174 / #149
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"treatment for gender dysphoria won't be necessary if everybody minds their own business"
I disagree- even if no one were prejudiced against any hue of the gender spectrum, I expect that there would still be individuals that needed treatment, or at least counseling, to help them with their own internal uncertainties and discomforts.
In the absence of any negative value judgements, aspersions and so on, where would those uncertainties and discomforts come from? I expect that intersexuals would have no more of them than people who are born double_jointed or with complete heterochromia iridum.
Apparently there are other forms of dysphoria. Seems to be a mismatch between the internal image a person has of what their body should be and what it actually is. Kind of the opposite of phantom limb?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:54 AM   #680206 / #150
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Some transgender people have a position about gender identity that I consider very illogical.

In my mind, being transgender is having a psychological gender identity different from one's body's gender. Thus, a transwoman is anatomically male and psychologically female and a transman is anatomically female and psychologically male.

The illogical part IMO is considering one's entire body to have one's psychological gender. Like some transwomen claiming that penises can be female if their owners are psychologically female.

Adopting this convention would cause a lot of confusion in discussions of genitalia and other sexually-differentiated features, and it is also contrary to what many transgender people try to do: give themselves body features that are more typical of their psychological gender. That often requires rather expensive surgery.
I think you're doing a classic cognitive mistake, when discussing this. Once we've opened up for transgenderism, there's not two genders, or even three or four genders. There's a billion various variants. There's many ways it can feel wrong, and many ways to fix it.

Your mistake is in thinking binary, and trying to shoehorn their theory (well.. theories... there's a bunch) into your binary model.
The problem with that is, biological sex *is* binary. Male and female, sperm and egg, penis and vagina- all the megafauna on Earth, including us, reproduce bisexually (in the sense of 'having two sexes'.) If we accept that gender is inextricably related to sexuality in the biological sense- and I don't see how it can be otherwise- then there is a natural tendency to try to fit gender to that basic duality.

Which is not to say that gender divides up cleanly into two; we all know it does not. But I don't see how we can understand gender, or deal with its complications, without accepting that its deepest origin is binary.
I think you've conceded the point. Here's a metaphor. Electrical plugs are all male and female. But connecting them won't always end with success. There's a variety of voltages and whatnot. A lot of them don't even fit together. Just because two people can fuck, doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

I agree that we should have another word for it. Because in everyday language we equate gender with body dimorphism. That leads the queer theoreticians and the other side (what are they called? biologists?) talking past each other.
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