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Old 26 Oct 2017, 07:39 PM   #678903 / #276
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I know the feeling.

If it were the Germans, they wouldn't be flying Mirage 2K. Could it have been a Eurofighter Typhoon?...It's a delta, but with canard. I understand about the 'wide open spaces', but there are places like Mach Loop in Wales, too. Given the number of military alliances the US has any more, we're starting to see sophisticated Sukhoi and MiG aircraft doing exercises in the US. It must make the Red Flag exercises real eye-openers.
Speaking of MiGs, I once got to see a MiG-15 at an airshow here in upstate NY. They were touting it as the only Western-owned MiG-15. Was nice to see it fly.
If there's only one, then I've seen it too.

I think in terms of unique aircraft I've seen at airshows, the Bleriot XI was one of the coolest. I doubt there are more than just the one, and seeing it up close, it's one of the few aircraft you couldn't get me to fly in.....

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_A_1910_a.jpg
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Old 26 Oct 2017, 08:19 PM   #678907 / #277
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Originally Posted by Shake View Post
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Originally Posted by Roo St. Gallus View Post
I know the feeling.

If it were the Germans, they wouldn't be flying Mirage 2K. Could it have been a Eurofighter Typhoon?...It's a delta, but with canard. I understand about the 'wide open spaces', but there are places like Mach Loop in Wales, too. Given the number of military alliances the US has any more, we're starting to see sophisticated Sukhoi and MiG aircraft doing exercises in the US. It must make the Red Flag exercises real eye-openers.
Speaking of MiGs, I once got to see a MiG-15 at an airshow here in upstate NY. They were touting it as the only Western-owned MiG-15. Was nice to see it fly.
If there's only one, then I've seen it too.

I think in terms of unique aircraft I've seen at airshows, the Bleriot XI was one of the coolest. I doubt there are more than just the one, and seeing it up close, it's one of the few aircraft you couldn't get me to fly in.....

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_A_1910_a.jpg
See the OP way up above for my photo of that Mig 15. They had a P-80 at the same show, but I don't know if it flew.
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Old 27 Oct 2017, 12:09 AM   #678926 / #278
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Here's some Mirage 2000 eye candy.

MiG 15, eh? Nice.

Around these parts, an owner couple used to hangar their Lim-6 at Tillamook Air Museum. It reputedly flies, but I've never seen it do so. A Lim-6 is a Polish equivalent of the MiG-17. They have it tricked out in the Soviet light blue on even lighter blue camo and it looks sweet.

I don't know if they moved to Madras with the Erickson Collection, or not.
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Old 27 Oct 2017, 02:13 PM   #678953 / #279
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Around these parts, an owner couple used to hangar their Lim-6 at Tillamook Air Museum. It reputedly flies, but I've never seen it do so. A Lim-6 is a Polish equivalent of the MiG-17. They have it tricked out in the Soviet light blue on even lighter blue camo and it looks sweet.

I don't know if they moved to Madras with the Erickson Collection, or not.
Here it is:

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Old 27 Oct 2017, 05:37 PM   #678970 / #280
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Aircraft porn is always appreciated.
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Old 28 Oct 2017, 05:59 PM   #679027 / #281
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The Luftwaffe flies the Typhoon, and I think they still use one of my favorites, the Panavia Tornado.
Yes, I think NATO still fields the Tornado.

I'm not a fan of the Tornado at all, as my opinion has been tainted by that of John Boyd, and when it comes to 'variable-geometry' wings, Boyd condemned them roundly for trying to make craft that 'did everything' and ruining them for much of anything. I'm likewise pretty unimpressed with other swing-wing craft. Along with the swing-wing thing, I think the Tornado has that 'slab-sided' look that the Rooskies were so good at for so long, but that's my aesthetic sensibilities...the ones which lead me to appreciate Dassault products. I mean...compare the Typhoon with the Rafale. They are pretty much the same bird, but the Typhoon looks like it's got a cheesebox strapped on its chin and the Rafale is undulating and aerodynamic looking. Of course, they both look like twin-engine versions of the smaller, more efficient, single-engine Gripen. (All truncated cranked deltas with canards - a design paradigm?) Looking at the three, it looks like the Eurofighter has the best performance numbers, but I'm still impressed by what SAAB has done and their 'market appeal'...fielding impressive 'discount' fighters.

So...Why is it you like the Panavia Tornado?
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Old 30 Oct 2017, 04:26 PM   #679085 / #282
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The Luftwaffe flies the Typhoon, and I think they still use one of my favorites, the Panavia Tornado.
Yes, I think NATO still fields the Tornado.

I'm not a fan of the Tornado at all, as my opinion has been tainted by that of John Boyd, and when it comes to 'variable-geometry' wings, Boyd condemned them roundly for trying to make craft that 'did everything' and ruining them for much of anything. I'm likewise pretty unimpressed with other swing-wing craft. Along with the swing-wing thing, I think the Tornado has that 'slab-sided' look that the Rooskies were so good at for so long, but that's my aesthetic sensibilities...the ones which lead me to appreciate Dassault products. I mean...compare the Typhoon with the Rafale. They are pretty much the same bird, but the Typhoon looks like it's got a cheesebox strapped on its chin and the Rafale is undulating and aerodynamic looking. Of course, they both look like twin-engine versions of the smaller, more efficient, single-engine Gripen. (All truncated cranked deltas with canards - a design paradigm?) Looking at the three, it looks like the Eurofighter has the best performance numbers, but I'm still impressed by what SAAB has done and their 'market appeal'...fielding impressive 'discount' fighters.
The canard/delta combo is quite effective. The more recent russian birds are essentially the same design, although they have a conventional tail in addition to the canards, which allows them to do some very interesting maneuvers at low speeds.

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So...Why is it you like the Panavia Tornado?
Not sure. I know how bad swing wings are in practice, but I like the design in general. I think I like the Tornado mostly because one of the coolest aircraft paint jobs I ever saw at an airshow was on a LW Tornado.
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Old 30 Oct 2017, 07:00 PM   #679092 / #283
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The Luftwaffe flies the Typhoon, and I think they still use one of my favorites, the Panavia Tornado.
Yes, I think NATO still fields the Tornado.

I'm not a fan of the Tornado at all, as my opinion has been tainted by that of John Boyd, and when it comes to 'variable-geometry' wings, Boyd condemned them roundly for trying to make craft that 'did everything' and ruining them for much of anything. I'm likewise pretty unimpressed with other swing-wing craft. Along with the swing-wing thing, I think the Tornado has that 'slab-sided' look that the Rooskies were so good at for so long, but that's my aesthetic sensibilities...the ones which lead me to appreciate Dassault products. I mean...compare the Typhoon with the Rafale. They are pretty much the same bird, but the Typhoon looks like it's got a cheesebox strapped on its chin and the Rafale is undulating and aerodynamic looking. Of course, they both look like twin-engine versions of the smaller, more efficient, single-engine Gripen. (All truncated cranked deltas with canards - a design paradigm?) Looking at the three, it looks like the Eurofighter has the best performance numbers, but I'm still impressed by what SAAB has done and their 'market appeal'...fielding impressive 'discount' fighters.
The canard/delta combo is quite effective. The more recent russian birds are essentially the same design, although they have a conventional tail in addition to the canards, which allows them to do some very interesting maneuvers at low speeds.
And the Chinese have followed suit with the Chengdu J-20.

Quote:
Quote:
So...Why is it you like the Panavia Tornado?
Not sure. I know how bad swing wings are in practice, but I like the design in general. I think I like the Tornado mostly because one of the coolest aircraft paint jobs I ever saw at an airshow was on a LW Tornado.
Heh...I can relate. If you follow the Tiger Meet fighters, they get pretty detailed on their specialty exterior paint jobs...



My 'favorite' fighter tends to change depending upon which piece of fighter porn I happen to be looking at, but it is Sweden's defensive concept, and their application of fighter air power within that, which appeals to me....perhaps it's just in the face of the financial debacle of the F-35 upgrade, but I'm wishing we'd (the US) invested in more Raptors, ditched the F-35s and instead bought a fleet of Gripens (or continually upgraded the Viper/Hornet pair).

Also...Fabricating some half-breed Lightning 'jump jet' to replace the A-10 on the modern battlefield seems misguided to the extreme. Is it a lightweight interceptor fighter or a ground support platform? Does 'stealth' matter in ground support?

Last edited by Roo St. Gallus; 30 Oct 2017 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 30 Oct 2017, 08:06 PM   #679095 / #284
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A Gripen, two Rafales, a Typhoon, and an aged Tornado.

Takin' the new boys out to introduce them to the 'hood.
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Old 09 Nov 2017, 04:10 PM   #679775 / #285
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So...With variable wing military craft, do the hard points on the movable portion of the wing swivel so that the attached loads are always aligned with the air flow created by the forward movement of the aircraft?

It seems common to suspend ordnance, extra fuel, and electronic tools under the wings. At first, I'd assumed that doing such on the movable portion of a swing wing would be out of the question, but that seems not to be the case.







So...The hard points swivel on the movable portion of the wing?
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Old 10 Nov 2017, 12:18 AM   #679809 / #286
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First is not an F-14, it's a tornado. And I was going to say that the tornado is the only NATO fighter that I know of that has hardpoints on the swing part, but the F-111 does too.

I think in both those cases, the hardpoints pivot. I don't know about Russian aircraft. I couldn't find anything definitive though.

On the F-14, the hardpoints are all inboard of the swing wing.
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Old 10 Nov 2017, 01:03 AM   #679820 / #287
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First is not an F-14, it's a tornado. And I was going to say that the tornado is the only NATO fighter that I know of that has hardpoints on the swing part, but the F-111 does too.

I think in both those cases, the hardpoints pivot. I don't know about Russian aircraft. I couldn't find anything definitive though.

On the F-14, the hardpoints are all inboard of the swing wing.
Ah...Gotchya. Searching 'F-14 hardpoints' confirms all hardpoints inboard.



I did find it difficult to find pix of MiG-27 Flogger with outboard loads. It looks like its predecessor, the MiG-23 and contemporary, the Su-24 Fencer, all had one hardpoint outboard on each wing. It looks like they did suspend loads, but not shiploads, like that Aardvark. I'll assume they pivot. It looks like the Su-17, 20, & 22 Fitters had no outboard hardpoints either, as the movable portion was not particularly large (it did not sweep back in to a delta configuration).
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Old 10 Nov 2017, 01:18 AM   #679821 / #288
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Then, I stumbled across this: F-16XL



An arrowhead delta...just add canards and step it on up to the club.

Last edited by Roo St. Gallus; 10 Nov 2017 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 16 Nov 2017, 06:40 PM   #680421 / #289
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I did find it difficult to find pix of MiG-27 Flogger with outboard loads. It looks like its predecessor, the MiG-23 and contemporary, the Su-24 Fencer, all had one hardpoint outboard on each wing. It looks like they did suspend loads, but not shiploads, like that Aardvark. I'll assume they pivot. It looks like the Su-17, 20, & 22 Fitters had no outboard hardpoints either, as the movable portion was not particularly large (it did not sweep back in to a delta configuration).
This shot:

Shows a MiG-27 with hardpoints mounted inside of the moving portion of the wing. Yet in this other one:

Those fuel tanks appear to be on the moving portion, so I would also assume they pivot, but that's the only image like that I could find. All others only showing the 2 fixed points.
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