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Old 27 Nov 2017, 10:05 AM   #681179 / #1
justme
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Default Going back to God

You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 10:21 AM   #681180 / #2
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You're a person, good at heart, trying to cope with problems as best you can. That's all that counts.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:25 AM   #681184 / #3
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You're a person, good at heart, trying to cope with problems as best you can. That's all that counts.
Thank you sir. I hust want to confirm that I reject the evangrlistic ties with conservatism and those who wish to use government as a tool of religious cleansing. The government should stay completely out of religion and religion completely out of Government. Any crossovers in this sets up the posibility of a theocratic tyrany, which I would fight tooth and nail.

The same is true for the LGBT. Many Christian's say that God didn't make any mistake. Me myself being Transgender feel that those types of people use themselves as a standard for correctness and a example of what perfection is and that is simply arrogance. What we are is different, but not deviant. We all made as unique individuals by him so that we can more easily understand those who like us are just as unique and I apologize to those who have been wronged by these So-called religious activists. They want their own world with their own Biblical interpretation and that is wrong. Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, not a policing of the world around us. This place we call America is not a Christian country any more than any other country. It may be saturated with the idea of Christianity, but that idea was corrupted and confiscated by those who have tried to justify their own actions as If It was his will that the slaughter, pilage and enslave their fellow man.

I have no problem with anyone who embraces their sexuality, in fact I encourage it because we need to explore and understand ourselves as individuals. If we do not than we deny ourselves the blessing of being who we truly are. We can more honestly deal with the world around us. I reject the idea that God created marriage so therefore Gays should not be able to marry. I think those that feel differently are blinded by those who lust for power and they overstep the authority given them by God. Marriage is an institution created by the Romans to deal with issues of inheritance. The Catholic church, as it has done so many timews before confiscated a pagan ritual for their benefit.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:25 AM   #681185 / #4
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You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin
I'm happy it's working for you. But you're talking an emotional need. Not about the existence of God. Belief in God works for you on an emotional level. Good for you. But you can get all that without accepting absurd scientific ideas. The last couple of years there's been a major movement towards atheistic religion, for this reason.

In 2012 me and some friends started Syntheism.

http://syntheism.org/

We had the idea that perhaps there's positive things about religion after all, and that the only real problem with religion was the belief in God. So we thought we could create a religion, just without God. So we did.

It didn't take long before it took off and now it's massive and international. Thousands of members spread out over the world. Temples in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Gothemburg and probably places that I forgot.

I'm not that involved any longer. It got a life of its own, and is just continually growing.

I'm not saying, join our group. I'm saying that it's not that hard creating and joining a religion that makes sense. Christianity just doesn't.

Spirituality is an actual thing. Loads of the stuff in religion is just practical advice. I personally see God as an emotional tool. It's somewhere to direct your gratitude for being alive. You can do all that without actually believing in an actual magical God. I think it was Habermas who defined God as "the name with give to our hopes and dreams".

I also feel filled up by the holy spirit on a regular basis. I'm still an atheist. There's a hell of a lot going for spiritual practices, that aren't woo. Perhaps try some of that? There's Yoga or Buddhist meditation? There's loads out there.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to sacrifice science and common sense because you feel that a religion is helping you.

I also suggest reading up on cognitive dissonance. It's unpleasant being in cognitive dissonance. So we subconsciously manage it by minimising facts of the opposing side. We know how the psychology of this works. There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.

And of course you'll be no less welcome here as a theist. We're not much of sceptics if our "faith" is unable to cope with criticism. Any belief is worthless if it isn't tested. Including atheism.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:54 AM   #681189 / #5
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.

I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.

I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 12:25 PM   #681192 / #6
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You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin
I'm happy it's working for you. But you're talking an emotional need. Not about the existence of God. Belief in God works for you on an emotional level. Good for you. But you can get all that without accepting absurd scientific ideas. The last couple of years there's been a major movement towards atheistic religion, for this reason.

In 2012 me and some friends started Syntheism.

http://syntheism.org/

We had the idea that perhaps there's positive things about religion after all, and that the only real problem with religion was the belief in God. So we thought we could create a religion, just without God. So we did.

It didn't take long before it took off and now it's massive and international. Thousands of members spread out over the world. Temples in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Gothemburg and probably places that I forgot.

I'm not that involved any longer. It got a life of its own, and is just continually growing.

I'm not saying, join our group. I'm saying that it's not that hard creating and joining a religion that makes sense. Christianity just doesn't.

Spirituality is an actual thing. Loads of the stuff in religion is just practical advice. I personally see God as an emotional tool. It's somewhere to direct your gratitude for being alive. You can do all that without actually believing in an actual magical God. I think it was Habermas who defined God as "the name with give to our hopes and dreams".

I also feel filled up by the holy spirit on a regular basis. I'm still an atheist. There's a hell of a lot going for spiritual practices, that aren't woo. Perhaps try some of that? There's Yoga or Buddhist meditation? There's loads out there.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to sacrifice science and common sense because you feel that a religion is helping you.

I also suggest reading up on cognitive dissonance. It's unpleasant being in cognitive dissonance. So we subconsciously manage it by minimising facts of the opposing side. We know how the psychology of this works. There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.

And of course you'll be no less welcome here as a theist. We're not much of sceptics if our "faith" is unable to cope with criticism. Any belief is worthless if it isn't tested. Including atheism.
I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.

I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 01:39 PM   #681198 / #7
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.
Yes, there are plenty of Christians who are great scientists. Do you know what scientists also are? Smart. Smart people find creative ways to work around cognitive dissonance. I've read several studies on religious top level scientists. What they have in common is that their concept of God tends to be really bizarre. Really out there and beyond the mundane stuff that your Sunday priest are talking about. Also so conceptually advanced that most people wouldn't get it even if they'd had it explained to them. A smart person being Christian is hardly going to have the same concept of God as a dumb person.

Which brings me to my next point. I'm one of those who aren't convinced that the people who wrote the Bible necessarily believed in God in the regular sense. Because we know they belonged to the educated intellectual elite. That means that they must have mastered Greek philosophy, understood how metaphor and symbolism works. They would also be familiar with how pagan theology works.

Religious texts, ie sacred texts, are written for all people. That means both smart and dumb people. I believe that the Bible operates on (at least) two levels. Some of it will be simplified and easily digestible, while some of it will have depth to it. Any enduring religious text will have both.

You can read the Bible as if you were a pagan. Then it becomes a work only intended to inspire. Rather than some sort of manual for getting into heaven. It also makes the whole concept of I'm-right-and-you-are-wrong moot.

...and why do I believe these guys belonged to an educated elite? Because they could write. Most people in that elite couldn't even write. So they're at the very top of an exceedingly pointy pyramid.

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I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.
He/she clearly made a different impression on you and me.

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I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
Good for you, and we seem to have the same world view. I think it's important to have a spiritual practice.

That said, I do believe that belief in a literal God (as in magic and the supernatural) is pure evil and a doorway to mayhem and destruction (too large for comfort). The moment we treat "faith" as a positive trait we're already at the bottom of that slippery slope.

The main problem with both Christianity and Islam today is that the most shallow, simplistic and dumbest forms of these religions are completely dominant today. I'm convinced it's gone so far I think they're both beyond redemption today. Which is why I went elsewhere to search for spiritual guidance.

I'm not saying you can't find it within the church. One of the best and most honest philosophy lectures I ever heard was from a Jesuit monk. But the priests I've met in person have all, at some point, said some really shallow dumb shit. If there exists some Christian priests out there with some spiritual depth to them, they sure have been hiding from me.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 01:48 PM   #681200 / #8
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I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.
Come on. You're just dodging thinking about it. All that means is that you haven't thought it through. That means that there's one or both you're not taking seriously, but just letting your subconscious work it out. I'm pretty sure your spiritual practice will suffer. There's few things as good for my mind as conscious clarity of purpose and thought.

Here's a tip. Work it out consciously and with purpose. Then you won't be one of those who can't explain why you believe what you believe. We all believe things for a reason. All you are saying is that you don't know the reason you have for believing. How about starting there? I promise it'll make you happier. It worked for me.

edit: an example of what I mean. Mysticism is a popular form of religion. But mysticism is an embrace of the mystery of life. A mystic doesn't necessarily believe anything. That's what mystery means. They just enjoy that mystery. Mysticism is perfectly compatible with a scientific outlook. It's also compatible with being an idiot, because mystics are also often religious extremists and militant fanatics. But there's nothing in mysticism that will inherently lead to that.

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I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.
By the sound of it, I'd say you're already on good way to crack this.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:06 PM   #681204 / #9
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I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.
Come on. You're just dodging thinking about it. All that means is that you haven't thought it through. That means that there's one or both you're not taking seriously, but just letting your subconscious work it out. I'm pretty sure your spiritual practice will suffer. There's few things as good for my mind as conscious clarity of purpose and thought.

Here's a tip. Work it out consciously and with purpose. Then you won't be one of those who can't explain why you believe what you believe. We all believe things for a reason. All you are saying is that you don't know the reason you have for believing. How about starting there? I promise it'll make you happier. It worked for me.

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I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.
By the sound of it, I'd say you're already on good way to crack this.
I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know. I'm not going to try and work something out by using that which I don't have, which is information.

I know that the what I experienced happened when I asked for it or when I came completely out from under the effects of Alcokol. I now believe that to have been because I completely lost connection with GOd when I was pickling my brain with that drug. The latter came only after I asked for the burdons to be lifted from me by God and that is what happened within a second of doing that.

What I've cracked is the idea of not being the same type of person who annoys the crap out of everyone, like these people who come to Atheist website to quote/unquote straighten everybody out because they are so full of themselves they can't see their full of something else that has nothing to do with God.

What this is is a personal relationship with God. If you have a different Idea that works for you, then I am as happy for you as I am happy for everybody else who has worked out their beliefs as best they could.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:07 PM   #681205 / #10
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:51 PM   #681212 / #11
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
The Hindu would see things from his perspective as would a Muslim. He would identify with the God of his understanding.

IThis is an honest question and I can only answer it from a perspective of my faith.

I truly believe if there was only one God and it was not the God I believe him to be, he would have corrected my understanding before took way the burdens that I asked him to take. I do not think he would do anything in the name of anyone else.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 07:11 PM   #681228 / #12
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I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know. I'm not going to try and work something out by using that which I don't have, which is information.

I know that the what I experienced happened when I asked for it or when I came completely out from under the effects of Alcokol. I now believe that to have been because I completely lost connection with GOd when I was pickling my brain with that drug. The latter came only after I asked for the burdons to be lifted from me by God and that is what happened within a second of doing that.

What I've cracked is the idea of not being the same type of person who annoys the crap out of everyone, like these people who come to Atheist website to quote/unquote straighten everybody out because they are so full of themselves they can't see their full of something else that has nothing to do with God.

What this is is a personal relationship with God. If you have a different Idea that works for you, then I am as happy for you as I am happy for everybody else who has worked out their beliefs as best they could.
I'd say you've swerved off here. Not knowing something, only means that. You've had a spiritual experience/spiritual awakening. That's all you've got. And that's nice. But you didn't stop there. You went onto to say that it's God. Well... God has a lot of connotations. I'm guessing Christian connotations?

"A personal relationship with God" is heavily overladen with Christian connotations, wouldn't you agree?

We've got a whole bunch of members of Syntheism who are neuroscientists. Don't ask me why they joined. They're great at explaining spirituality scientifically. We can have a personal relationship with God without their actually being a God. I think that's important to grasp... you know... if only to prove that all those years in school weren't wasted on you.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 07:27 PM   #681231 / #13
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
The Hindu would see things from his perspective as would a Muslim. He would identify with the God of his understanding.

IThis is an honest question and I can only answer it from a perspective of my faith.

I truly believe if there was only one God and it was not the God I believe him to be, he would have corrected my understanding before took way the burdens that I asked him to take. I do not think he would do anything in the name of anyone else.
Not trying to give you a hard time, but this is like saying someone from China would call this a bat, someone from the US would call this a club, and someone from Chile would call this a pole.

It may be a matter of perspective, but in most cases, there's an actual correct answer (or, in the case of religion, they're all wrong). Does the fact that you got some emotional sensation that is most likely a figment of your imagination, or at best, coincidental, not bother you when you anthropomorphize it? I mean, what happens when you 'get down on your knees and call out to god'....and nothing happens? There's probably quite a bit of perception bias going on there too.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:57 PM   #681247 / #14
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
The Hindu would see things from his perspective as would a Muslim. He would identify with the God of his understanding.

IThis is an honest question and I can only answer it from a perspective of my faith.

I truly believe if there was only one God and it was not the God I believe him to be, he would have corrected my understanding before took way the burdens that I asked him to take. I do not think he would do anything in the name of anyone else.
Not trying to give you a hard time, but this is like saying someone from China would call this a bat, someone from the US would call this a club, and someone from Chile would call this a pole.

It may be a matter of perspective, but in most cases, there's an actual correct answer (or, in the case of religion, they're all wrong). Does the fact that you got some emotional sensation that is most likely a figment of your imagination, or at best, coincidental, not bother you when you anthropomorphize it? I mean, what happens when you 'get down on your knees and call out to god'....and nothing happens? There's probably quite a bit of perception bias going on there too.
I don't follow you with the animal analogy. Do you understand the connotations of the entity called God.? He is not an uncle or a cousin that pops into your life to gives you a warm felling of being alive.

He is an entity who can and does at his down discretion, takes steps to influence the world he made for those who have given him the respect and acknowledgement of being who he is.

Your question was generally how do you know if the entity that responds to you is the God you think he is. I answered that the best way I can.a t the time

God knows our hearts and our minds and knows by the way we do things and the fact that we end all our prayer with, In Jesus's name Amen. To a Christian, no prayer can reach the God of Christianity except through the avenue of Jesus Christ. That is the entire thing about Jesus. He is the lord and savior and through his death our sins were washed away.

I don't know if there is just one God out there or a plethora of Gods, but their, since The first commandment Was, I am your God, You will have no other Gods before me. All I do know is that Christ said that No one can reach the Father except through him and that is why we end prayers as we do.

If you mean by an emotional sensation what I refer to as The Holy Spirit only a figment of my imagination. Why would it be so that I only experienced it twice, in a life that spans almost 60 years? You could easily excuse the time in rehab as something of little consequence, but what of the time when it came again to me only after I called on God to carry the4 burden that was most assuredly leading me to a nervous breakdown. The effects was immediate and startling. Everything that was plaguing my mind was gone as if it hadn't existed at all.

Of course it still existed and I dealt with it, but the worry and anxiety stress was no longer there.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 12:31 AM   #681249 / #15
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Your question was generally how do you know if the entity that responds to you is the God you think he is. I answered that the best way I can.a t the time
Faith? Personal experience of a god? I am afraid, justme, that is about as unsatisfactory answer as one can dish up. Contrary to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Neither is your conviction that you have had a personal experience of one. It can't be distinguished from a claim of having spoken with, say, your great-great-great-grandmother. Inner voices are also known as delusions - or madness.

As for it making you feel better, having a weight taken off your shoulder and so on, the same thing can be achieved by doing yoga or becoming convinced that you are Napoleon Bonaparte. There are thousands of people who have managed to jettison their troubles in those ways.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 01:11 AM   #681251 / #16
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Your question was generally how do you know if the entity that responds to you is the God you think he is. I answered that the best way I can.a t the time
Faith? Personal experience of a god? I am afraid, justme, that is about as unsatisfactory answer as one can dish up. Contrary to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Neither is your conviction that you have had a personal experience of one. It can't be distinguished from a claim of having spoken with, say, your great-great-great-grandmother. Inner voices are also known as delusions - or madness.

As for it making you feel better, having a weight taken off your shoulder and so on, the same thing can be achieved by doing yoga or becoming convinced that you are Napoleon Bonaparte. There are thousands of people who have managed to jettison their troubles in those ways.

That depends on the person. Faith is what it is for the individual that possesses it. It can be a anchor just as much as it can be a boondoggle, but that is determined by what comes of having it in the end.

It possibly can be achieved as you say it can. I have not tried any of that, but what I have been given was achieved without any of that aand instantaneously, which is why I attribute it to that which I do,

I applaud those who have found other ways of dealing with that which I had to. I didn't not say there was only one way, but this is the way that worked for me and I attribute achieving that in the manner I did because it required nothing from me but faith.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 01:30 AM   #681253 / #17
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Your question was generally how do you know if the entity that responds to you is the God you think he is. I answered that the best way I can.a t the time
Faith? Personal experience of a god? I am afraid, justme, that is about as unsatisfactory answer as one can dish up. Contrary to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Neither is your conviction that you have had a personal experience of one. It can't be distinguished from a claim of having spoken with, say, your great-great-great-grandmother. Inner voices are also known as delusions - or madness.

As for it making you feel better, having a weight taken off your shoulder and so on, the same thing can be achieved by doing yoga or becoming convinced that you are Napoleon Bonaparte. There are thousands of people who have managed to jettison their troubles in those ways.
That depends on the person. Faith is what it is for the individual that possesses it.
No, it isn't and it doesn't. You are now coming up with something even more idiotic - words to the effect of asserting: "It may not be the truth for you, but it is the truth for me."

No matter what you think of faith or your inner voices you mistake for an extraneous, supernatural identity, you have exactly nothing to back your conviction up with except to say "Well, I know it's true because I think it's true." Please reflect on the utter imbecility of that.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 02:28 AM   #681255 / #18
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Your question was generally how do you know if the entity that responds to you is the God you think he is. I answered that the best way I can.a t the time
Faith? Personal experience of a god? I am afraid, justme, that is about as unsatisfactory answer as one can dish up. Contrary to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Neither is your conviction that you have had a personal experience of one. It can't be distinguished from a claim of having spoken with, say, your great-great-great-grandmother. Inner voices are also known as delusions - or madness.

As for it making you feel better, having a weight taken off your shoulder and so on, the same thing can be achieved by doing yoga or becoming convinced that you are Napoleon Bonaparte. There are thousands of people who have managed to jettison their troubles in those ways.
That depends on the person. Faith is what it is for the individual that possesses it.
No, it isn't and it doesn't. You are now coming up with something even more idiotic - words to the effect of asserting: "It may not be the truth for you, but it is the truth for me."

No matter what you think of faith or your inner voices you mistake for an extraneous, supernatural identity, you have exactly nothing to back your conviction up with except to say "Well, I know it's true because I think it's true." Please reflect on the utter imbecility of that.
I take it that you retract your inital post in this thread and institue this one out of the frustration you feel about mr not being you. I apologize to you for your frustration, but as I said I did not come here to evangelize.

I have already told everyone here that I don't have the answers to everything and I'm fairly sure that is universal.

I remember and argument that stated that just because i don't have all the answers doesn't mean i automatically have to except the existence of God. I would add to that that just because I don't have all the answers that I must accept the nonexistence of God.

If I have offended you by not having the answers that would placate you then I am sorry, but the intent of answering any question is to respond honestly and openly as best one can. If that doesn't suffice then I guess you are asking the wrong person. Good day to you.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 05:17 AM   #681269 / #19
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Faith? Personal experience of a god? I am afraid, justme, that is about as unsatisfactory answer as one can dish up. Contrary to Hebrews 11:1 faith is not the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Neither is your conviction that you have had a personal experience of one. It can't be distinguished from a claim of having spoken with, say, your great-great-great-grandmother. Inner voices are also known as delusions - or madness.

As for it making you feel better, having a weight taken off your shoulder and so on, the same thing can be achieved by doing yoga or becoming convinced that you are Napoleon Bonaparte. There are thousands of people who have managed to jettison their troubles in those ways.
That depends on the person. Faith is what it is for the individual that possesses it.
No, it isn't and it doesn't. You are now coming up with something even more idiotic - words to the effect of asserting: "It may not be the truth for you, but it is the truth for me."

No matter what you think of faith or your inner voices you mistake for an extraneous, supernatural identity, you have exactly nothing to back your conviction up with except to say "Well, I know it's true because I think it's true." Please reflect on the utter imbecility of that.
I take it that you retract your inital post in this thread and institue this one out of the frustration you feel about mr not being you.
If that were the case I would have said as much. Please consider the possibility that in my first post I addressed your personality, in the next two your assertions, opinions and what you might regard as your argument. You are not the only one I regard as good as well as likeable as a person while simultaneously regarding their opinions and arguments as utter crap. Conversely, I know people whose stances are constructed with admirable coherence, but who I regard as despicable in character even if I agree with their arguments*. I try to evaluate a person and his or her argument separately and I think I succeed in that endeavour rather more often than not. Please keep that in mind when you read my comments.

* Now, talking between you and me and the lamppost, Jobar for instance is intellectually top of the range, and he makes perfect sense much of the time, but as a person he is a v...
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 08:58 AM   #681275 / #20
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I have already told everyone here that I don't have the answers to everything and I'm fairly sure that is universal.
You're confusing nothing with something. You have answers to something, or you wouldn't have taken any action. Nobody has answers for everything. So that's not saying much. And by just bringing it up you're dodging the question.

It's valuable, even for just your own sake to try to sort out what answers you do have and why you find those answers convincing.

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I remember and argument that stated that just because i don't have all the answers doesn't mean i automatically have to except the existence of God. I would add to that that just because I don't have all the answers that I must accept the nonexistence of God.
God's existence isn't the interesting bit. The interesting bit is how and why the way you communicate works for you. In what way does communicating with God make you feel and what does it do for you? I'm genuinely interested. For the sake of my own spiritual practice.

I was a militant all-religion-is-evil until 2012. Now I've switched positions completely. Now I think religions are great. I think we invented them because they are useful and help us. But I'm still an atheist.

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If I have offended you by not having the answers that would placate you then I am sorry, but the intent of answering any question is to respond honestly and openly as best one can. If that doesn't suffice then I guess you are asking the wrong person. Good day to you.
I'm not calling you a liar. But I don't think you've spent much time looking inward. Ie, being honest with yourself. Or you'd have better answers.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 09:39 AM   #681278 / #21
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That depends on the person. Faith is what it is for the individual that possesses it.
No, it isn't and it doesn't. You are now coming up with something even more idiotic - words to the effect of asserting: "It may not be the truth for you, but it is the truth for me."

No matter what you think of faith or your inner voices you mistake for an extraneous, supernatural identity, you have exactly nothing to back your conviction up with except to say "Well, I know it's true because I think it's true." Please reflect on the utter imbecility of that.
I take it that you retract your inital post in this thread and institue this one out of the frustration you feel about mr not being you.
If that were the case I would have said as much. Please consider the possibility that in my first post I addressed your personality, in the next two your assertions, opinions and what you might regard as your argument. You are not the only one I regard as good as well as likeable as a person while simultaneously regarding their opinions and arguments as utter crap. Conversely, I know people whose stances are constructed with admirable coherence, but who I regard as despicable in character even if I agree with their arguments*. I try to evaluate a person and his or her argument separately and I think I succeed in that endeavour rather more often than not. Please keep that in mind when you read my comments.

* Now, talking between you and me and the lamppost, Jobar for instance is intellectually top of the range, and he makes perfect sense much of the time, but as a person he is a v...
You demand of me that I produce proof of my feelings in a situation where my feelings are of the existance of a being, so powerful that he can conceal himself and still effect the world around him.

I told you before I did not come here to prove anything because I was not here to preach something that was against your beliefs and yet you become irate that I do not do so.

My intent has never been to force the issue and you become unglued when I don't do exactly that. Your beliefs are your own and I respect that. My beliefs are my own and in an attempt to explain those beliefs for the sake of clarity you come after me because I haven't jumped through the hoops you've mentally set up.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 10:23 AM   #681281 / #22
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You demand of me that I produce proof of my feelings
There is nothing at all in my posts that can be construed as a demand to produce proof. You are of course free to post whatever you like. That's fine. Am I not free to write what I think of whatever it is you have posted? Not fine?
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 11:33 AM   #681289 / #23
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I would argue that Satan was the true good guy in the bible, but he lost the PR war. Maybe it's actually Satan you are feeling. After all, he was the one that encouraged us to actually think on our own, discover knowledge, and become enlightened.

Job was actually Satan testing god's morals (and god failed).....
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 11:50 PM   #681366 / #24
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-I've acomplished what I set out to do with this thread.
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Old 28 Nov 2017, 11:53 PM   #681367 / #25
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I have already told everyone here that I don't have the answers to everything and I'm fairly sure that is universal.
You're confusing nothing with something. You have answers to something, or you wouldn't have taken any action. Nobody has answers for everything. So that's not saying much. And by just bringing it up you're dodging the question.

It's valuable, even for just your own sake to try to sort out what answers you do have and why you find those answers convincing.

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Originally Posted by justme View Post
I remember and argument that stated that just because i don't have all the answers doesn't mean i automatically have to except the existence of God. I would add to that that just because I don't have all the answers that I must accept the nonexistence of God.
God's existence isn't the interesting bit. The interesting bit is how and why the way you communicate works for you. In what way does communicating with God make you feel and what does it do for you? I'm genuinely interested. For the sake of my own spiritual practice.

I was a militant all-religion-is-evil until 2012. Now I've switched positions completely. Now I think religions are great. I think we invented them because they are useful and help us. But I'm still an atheist.

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If I have offended you by not having the answers that would placate you then I am sorry, but the intent of answering any question is to respond honestly and openly as best one can. If that doesn't suffice then I guess you are asking the wrong person. Good day to you.
I'm not calling you a liar. But I don't think you've spent much time looking inward. Ie, being honest with yourself. Or you'd have better answers.
I appriciate your interest in this and I understand what you are coming from with this Atheist Religion, but with every faith their needs to be an effective anchor where which the adherents look towards for that guidance within the religion and to be the disciplinarian when they stray. Without that the religion becomes philosophical experiment.

As far as my answers to any question in this thread I answered as openly as I could without going past the perimeter I set from myself before I started this thread.

Last edited by justme; 29 Nov 2017 at 12:19 AM.
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