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Old 25 Mar 2017, 12:40 PM   #667322 / #326
Grendel
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- it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.
What is it about the Bible that could not be made up?
The Book of Ecclesiastes. That's someone's knowledge from experience.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:09 PM   #667328 / #327
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I'm bombarded here with questions and comments on my views. As much as I would like to get back to them all, I would need to quit my job to find the time. I started out trying to do just that, and trying to put some time into forming a good response, but the posts piled up and I have been accused of avoiding certain questions.
Yes, both statements are true. You cannot reply to all questions and comments addressed to you and you are avoiding certain questions. The latter makes it increasingly obvious that you are not interested in actually discussing assertions you make. As soon as someone puts you on the spot you escape like a slippery fish, only to ramble on elsewhere in true proselytising and evangelising fashion.

You can of course demonstrate that my impression is mistaken by ceasing to drop previous strands in this thread like hot potatoes and starting to engage with new ones. Perhaps you could start by replying to a post I addressed to you just over a week ago. To save you your precious time looking for it, here it is again:
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What Do Christians say when Natural Disasters strike?
No. That is not my question. What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.

2. Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Those thousands of babies. Did they really need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within your god’s providence as well? And what exactly is so providential about it?

3. Why could your god not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son? Last I heard from you you indulged in another bout of question begging. You said it's because a sacrifice was necessary. A pre-kindergarten aged child couldn't get any more primitively circular than that.

So, still waiting for answers to these. I leave the rest of the questions I brought up before for a later time. You're not coping at all well with the ones you have chosen to address. You undoubtedly mean well, but I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:22 PM   #667331 / #328
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What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.
Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.

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2. Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Those thousands of babies. Did they really need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within your god’s providence as well? And what exactly is so providential about it?
Well it's not unjust. They would have died anyway from some cause or other. They'd certainly be dead by now.

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3. Why could your god not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son? Last I heard from you you indulged in another bout of question begging. You said it's because a sacrifice was necessary. A pre-kindergarten aged child couldn't get any more primitively circular than that.
Because he wanted to start fresh over again. There was no re-training his son, he'd picked up bad habits. Quicker, cleaner, to just start again.

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So, still waiting for answers to these.
I bet you are too.


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I leave the rest of the questions I brought up before for a later time. (snigger) You're not coping at all well with the ones you have chosen to address. You undoubtedly mean well, but I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
O Jesu, would that this cup was passed from me.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:41 PM   #667335 / #329
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- it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.
What is it about the Bible that could not be made up?
The Book of Ecclesiastes. That's someone's knowledge from experience.
I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Quote:
The story is narrated by Manuel Garcia "Mannie" O'Kelly-Davis, a computer technician who discovers that HOLMES IV has achieved self-awareness and has developed a sense of humor. Mannie names it "Mike" after Mycroft Holmes, brother of Sherlock Holmes, and they become friends.[5]
Thus Mannie "tells us" about his "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "political situation" on Earth's moon.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known (many people met Heinlein while he was alive, and many other writers were friends) and no one claims it is other than fiction?


edit: ah, looking at your other comments, I appear to be replying to sarcasm; oh well, I re-address it to 1ICrying, who does think the bible "experiences" were real.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:45 PM   #667336 / #330
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I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Thus we hear about Mannie's "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "situation" there.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known and no one claims it is other than fiction?
It's not fiction TMHAIM is true! Written from experience
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:49 PM   #667337 / #331
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What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.
Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:54 PM   #667338 / #332
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Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.
Well at least it's Original


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Old 25 Mar 2017, 02:03 PM   #667339 / #333
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1ICrying, I appreciate your willingness in attempting to explain how you can believe that god always existed. I can't agree with your conclusions, but at least you tried. From my perspective, it sounds as if you are simply very attached to the beliefs you were raised with and you aren't comfortable giving them up, so you do the best you can to try and make them sound reasonable. As long as those beliefs help you live a decent life, I won't judge you for holding them. Apparently they comfort you and help motivate you to live a good life.

It's good to see a contemporary Christian that doesn't judge others. In today's world, I find that to be very rare. I hope you are able to maintain the ability to be compassionate and non judgmental. I value those traits regardless of who holds them. Imo, it all comes down to our values and our ability to think for ourselves, even if it's somewhat limited by the confines of religion, or our own lack of understanding of things.

I hope you will stay around and participate in some of the discussions here that aren't only about religion. Perhaps we will discover that we have more in common than we think. There's a common atheist saying. "I just believe in one less god than you do." Having rejected the other gods, you only have one left to lose.


I'd like to explain in simple terms why it's so hard for me to consider an afterlife. Most of us have minds that are capable of thinking and imagining things. Our minds are merely the product of how the physical aspects of our brains, ie, neurons, axions, dendrites and chemical neurotransmitters interact. Without these very physical parts of our brain, there is no mind. Once our physical brain dies, so does our mind, what some might call the soul. It's inconceivable to me that something is going to magically appear after all of our physical structures have died. Then again, I can't imagine on entity who has interventionist powers but remains invisible. I don't think of death as necessarily negative, depending of course on how and when it occurs. On the other hand, the possibility of living in some weird spiritual afterlife forever, does not sound comforting to me. It sounds hellish. Maybe that's why I have no trouble accepting my own mortality.


So, do the best you can to enjoy what time you have on earth. I'm convinced this is the only life we get to live, for better or worse. It can bring us joy or misery depending upon our individual circumstances.

I once had a Christian friend who liked to argue with me about the afterlife. After we exhausted ourselves, she would say to me, "one day we'll find out who is right." I'd turn to her and say, "not if I'm right."
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 02:29 PM   #667342 / #334
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I once had a Christian friend who liked to argue with me about the afterlife. After we exhausted ourselves, she would say to me, "one day we'll find out who is right." I'd turn to her and say, "not if I'm right."
Yeah, I mentioned that earlier. Lack of hebbin would be like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown, but there would be nobody to laugh.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 05:45 PM   #667348 / #335
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I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Thus we hear about Mannie's "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "situation" there.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known and no one claims it is other than fiction?
It's not fiction TMHAIM is true! Written from experience
Uh, that would be The Moon Harsh A Is Mistress, popular with the dyslexic science fiction fans because it looks right to them.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 06:38 PM   #667351 / #336
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I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Thus we hear about Mannie's "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "situation" there.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known and no one claims it is other than fiction?
It's not fiction TMHAIM is true! Written from experience
Uh, that would be The Moon Harsh A Is Mistress, popular with the dyslexic science fiction fans because it looks right to them.
Nah, it's I Moons a Mistress! Harsh. The slightly more risque version.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 06:48 PM   #667353 / #337
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Get it right, people. The inevitability of death turns some people into panicky, noisome lunatics. So: The Loon is an Arse in Distress.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 07:47 PM   #667357 / #338
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I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Thus we hear about Mannie's "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "situation" there.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known and no one claims it is other than fiction?
It's not fiction TMHAIM is true! Written from experience
Uh, that would be The Moon Harsh A Is Mistress, popular with the dyslexic science fiction fans because it looks right to them.
Nah, it's I Moons a Mistress! Harsh. The slightly more risque version.
Well, Heinlein did indeed have a lot more sexual content in his later novels. If he had written it then, he might have actually used something like that.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 08:21 PM   #667365 / #339
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Mooning has sexual connotations for you?
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 08:31 PM   #667366 / #340
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Mooning has sexual connotations for you?
If a girl does it, sure. I try to put sexual connotations into everything. Why not?

Besides, I was reacting to "risque", which had already been brought up by someone else. You didn't read what I was responding to?

ris·qué
riˈskā/
adjective
adjective: risqué

slightly indecent or liable to shock, especially by being sexually suggestive.
"his risqué humor"
synonyms: ribald, rude, bawdy, Rabelaisian, racy, earthy, indecent, suggestive, improper, naughty, locker-room; More
vulgar, dirty, smutty, crude, coarse, obscene, lewd, X-rated;
informalblue, raunchy;
off-color
"risqué stories"
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 08:46 PM   #667367 / #341
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Sub did mention 'risqué'. You brought 'sexual' into the discussion. Mooning a mistress could be risqué. I don't regard it as sexual, though, but I'll not lose any sleep over the fact that you do.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 09:09 PM   #667373 / #342
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Again, the dictionary definition is right there. The "sexually suggestive" included in risque (you didn't see the highlight?) and "sexual" differ only by degree.

You're going on about nothing, so neither of us will lose sleep over it.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 09:30 PM   #667376 / #343
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Again, the dictionary definition is right there. The "sexually suggestive" included in risque (you didn't see the highlight?)
Yup. Saw it. And I agree that there is an overlap of meaning between 'risqué' and 'sexual'. That said, not everything that is risqué is also sexual and vice versa. In my view most of what is sexual is not risqué (unless you do "it" where Ringo Starr suggests - or something like that), and mooning, while risqué, is not sexual. No matter. Keep conflating the two. It's a free world. At least that's what we are supposed to believe.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 09:57 PM   #667379 / #344
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Thank you, thank you! Your permission is always necessary, and I will anxiously seek it on all of life's endeavors. Please provide contact information for those times I am away from my computer.

In other words: whatever, man.

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Old 25 Mar 2017, 11:24 PM   #667383 / #345
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And the reality is that I was just looking for a cheap joke and tossed off the double entendre because if you can't stick one in then what's the point?

But yes, mooning certainly can have a gently sexual connotation for me. I guess it comes down to who is doing it for what reason, because semantic fields tend to trump dictionary definitions when it comes to connotations.

So whether it's my wife flashing a cheek in a flirty manner or my rugger bugger mate Nigel expressing his disgust at some random thing makes a difference to me.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 09:13 PM   #667476 / #346
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On the side-topic of burden of proof, I like what Matt Dillahunty has to say in this conversation 8:18 to 9:53.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 10:02 PM   #667481 / #347
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It's certainly true that we are many, and 1I is only one. (As his screen name says! )

It's also true, I think, that we are far more familiar with these sorts of discussions, and that we can ask questions that can't be answered from a believer's perspective, except by saying "It's a mystery" or some similar flavor of waffle.

But I don't think it's fair to 1I to accuse him of intentional intellectual dishonesty, just because he hasn't yet gotten that so many of our questions can't be answered from within his paradigm. Give the man time. None of us are on any sort of clock here, after all.

Which is not to say that we can't keep pointing out the insufficiency of his attempts at answers- but gently, gently. You really can't convince someone of the correctness of your argument by beating them over the head with it!
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 10:46 PM   #667491 / #348
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But I don't think it's fair to 1I to accuse him of intentional intellectual dishonesty
I don't really think that's what most are complaining about. It's his nearly total ignorance of what he is pushing. He can't "teach" it if he doesn't himself know anything about it other than catchphrases he has heard.

I would say intellectual laziness more than intellectual dishonesty.

He needs to spend a few years learning what the Talking Donkey Book actually says. Then he can come back and try again.

Who knows? If he does that, he may come to realize that it's a load of crap the way we all did.

As Mark Twain said: "the best cure for christianity is reading the bible"

Of course, that may be why he doesn't read it. Might be afraid of losing his butterflies and rainbows.

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Old 26 Mar 2017, 10:54 PM   #667492 / #349
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I wouldn't want to make claims one way or another for 1I, but many Christians I have met have never read the whole bible. Instead, they have had their attention drawn to particular extracts by teachers or preachers and have also been given many explanations that are not necessarily a good fit. So one might say that they have been exposed to a heavily bowdlerised bible.

The same is true of the koran and many Muslims, particularly of those who are illiterate or those who don't know Arabic.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 11:05 PM   #667495 / #350
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I personally have no problem teaching my own understanding of the Bible, to anyone who is interested. As long as 1I wants to talk about it, I don't care how familiar he is with it. Hey, I might even learn something from ones who know more about it than I do. I've quite enjoyed discussions with my nephew, who has a degree in Religion from a well known Baptist seminary!
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