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Old 16 Mar 2017, 07:38 PM   #666714 / #276
subsymbolic
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Finally, I think this is the best illustration. All of Job’s 10 children died in a natural disaster. There was a wind storm that blew down the house. Job was confronted with the fact that because of a natural disaster, there are 10 fresh graves on the hilltop. So now what is he going to do?

His wife says to curse God and die. But Job said, “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Job shows us it is possible to worship God even without explanations, even when we don’t know all the reasons. Those who worship God under those conditions are especially blessed.
But we do know the reasons, they are explicit in the scripture you clearly haven't read. Job's children died because Satan tempted God to let him kill them to prove that Job would stay loyal and God, in his pride allowed Satan to kill them. It's your mad scripture FFS, why haven't you read it?

It's genuinely offensive that you claim such faith and feel, in your pride, that you can proselytise and yet you are referring to scripture you clearly have not read, because if you had read it, you would know that Satan caused the deaths and God let him to prove that Job would stay loyal. Well here it is, deal with the reality of the thing you have faith in but no knowledge of:


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Originally Posted by Your Bible
6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 07:39 PM   #666715 / #277
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What Do Christians say when Natural Disasters strike?
No. That is not my question. What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.

2. Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Those thousands of babies. Did they really need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within your god’s providence as well? And what exactly is so providential about it?

3. Why could your god not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son? Last I heard from you you indulged in another bout of question begging. You said it's because a sacrifice was necessary. A pre-kindergarten aged child couldn't get any more primitively circular than that.

So, still waiting for answers to these. I leave the rest of the questions I brought up before for a later time. You're not coping at all well with the ones you have chosen to address. You undoubtedly mean well, but I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 07:47 PM   #666716 / #278
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Why would God even bother to take up that bet, especially since he would have known exactly what would happen anyway? An anyway half-decent god would have simply told Satan to fuck off.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 07:51 PM   #666719 / #279
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Damn....I'm running out of popcorn and the intellectual level just took a step....up?

I'm surprised somebody has not dragged the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in My Garage, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Russell's Teapot in to the discussion yet.

I mean, if 1I can posit (or deposit) one, why can't everybody else? The more the merrier!
My usual favourite is my invisible pink bunny rabbit friend called Harvey. When I use it, the religious usually accuse me of ridiculing them or otherwise treating them discourteously. They just don't get it.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:04 PM   #666720 / #280
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Why would God even bother to take up that bet, especially since he would have known exactly what would happen anyway? An anyway half-decent god would have simply told Satan to fuck off.
I'm pretty sure that the answer is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJSKxP3qNzY

From around 1:44 or so.

Of course, God 'hardening Pharaoh's heart' so he didn't let the Hebrew's go and God could commit genocide and call it, and I quote: 'His Marvels'. Ho Ho.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:13 PM   #666721 / #281
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All of Job’s 10 children died in a natural disaster.
LOL, fucking Job. After he was already pointed out as a perfect example of your cartoon god's cruelty. The "natural disaster" was under goddy-poo's control, or at least with his permission. In other words, Shithead's family was murdered. Just to "prove a point".

You think we haven't heard that dumb story?
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Those who worship God under those conditions are especially blessed
Those who worship God under those conditions are masochistic idiots.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:19 PM   #666723 / #282
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the religious usually accuse me of ridiculing them or otherwise treating them discourteously.

They just don't get it.
The religious ridicule themselves, with every word they say, and they don't get that either.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:28 PM   #666724 / #283
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I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
No thought needed, the programming is in control.

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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:40 PM   #666725 / #284
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Finally, I think this is the best illustration. All of Job’s 10 children died in a natural disaster. There was a wind storm that blew down the house. Job was confronted with the fact that because of a natural disaster, there are 10 fresh graves on the hilltop. So now what is he going to do?

His wife says to curse God and die. But Job said, “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Job shows us it is possible to worship God even without explanations, even when we don’t know all the reasons. Those who worship God under those conditions are especially blessed.
But we do know the reasons, they are explicit in the scripture you clearly haven't read. Job's children died because Satan tempted God to let him kill them to prove that Job would stay loyal and God, in his pride allowed Satan to kill them. It's your mad scripture FFS, why haven't you read it?

It's genuinely offensive that you claim such faith and feel, in your pride, that you can proselytise and yet you are referring to scripture you clearly have not read, because if you had read it, you would know that Satan caused the deaths and God let him to prove that Job would stay loyal. Well here it is, deal with the reality of the thing you have faith in but no knowledge of:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Bible
6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Like I said, he has his own private version of this crap, and it doesn't correspond to the mythology or to reality.

As a side note, it has always struck me as hilarious that "fearing god" is a good thing. Some relationship.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:50 PM   #666729 / #285
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Finally, I think this is the best illustration. All of Job’s 10 children died in a natural disaster. There was a wind storm that blew down the house. Job was confronted with the fact that because of a natural disaster, there are 10 fresh graves on the hilltop. So now what is he going to do?

His wife says to curse God and die. But Job said, “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Job shows us it is possible to worship God even without explanations, even when we don’t know all the reasons. Those who worship God under those conditions are especially blessed.
But we do know the reasons, they are explicit in the scripture you clearly haven't read. Job's children died because Satan tempted God to let him kill them to prove that Job would stay loyal and God, in his pride allowed Satan to kill them. It's your mad scripture FFS, why haven't you read it?

It's genuinely offensive that you claim such faith and feel, in your pride, that you can proselytise and yet you are referring to scripture you clearly have not read, because if you had read it, you would know that Satan caused the deaths and God let him to prove that Job would stay loyal. Well here it is, deal with the reality of the thing you have faith in but no knowledge of:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Bible
6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Like I said, he has his own private version of this crap, and it doesn't correspond to the mythology or to reality.

As a side note, it has always struck me as hilarious that "fearing god" is a good thing. Some relationship.
Yeah, he already made it clear that he doesn't like kids but punishing them is loving. That's a child protection issue right there.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 11:47 PM   #666733 / #286
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Why would God even bother to take up that bet, especially since he would have known exactly what would happen anyway? An anyway half-decent god would have simply told Satan to fuck off.
Actually, if he really gave a shit about man, he would have gotten rid of satan completely. Oh, wait, Pitchfork Boy's necessary to the melodrama. Where would Star Wars be without Darth Vader?

Now if it was reality...
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 12:14 AM   #666736 / #287
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I think that particular soap opera was nicked from Zoroastrianism from back when Jehovah was still merely one of the sons on Enlil,
himself merely a son of An.

That the problem with the faithful. No sense of deep time and the endlessly human foible of nicking each other's fairy stories. I still think Utnapishtim is a much cooler name than Noah.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 12:30 AM   #666737 / #288
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I think that particular soap opera was nicked from Zoroastrianism from back when Jehovah was still merely one of the sons on Enlil,
himself merely a son of An.

That the problem with the faithful. No sense of deep time and the endlessly human foible of nicking each other's fairy stories. I still think Utnapishtim is a much cooler name than Noah.
You're probably correct about the Satan figure being nicked from the Zoroastrians, as the whole lake of everlasting fire is one of theirs, too.

But I cannot atest to the 'sons of Enlil' thing, as I understood he was just a second string player in the Council of Canaanite (Ugaritic) gods, along with Dagon, Moloch, Ba'al, Astarte, Asherah and a host of others presided over by El. The young Jehovah was evidently allotted the Hebrews as his people, the poor sucker.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 03:42 AM   #666748 / #289
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Enoch and Jude are part of the Apocrypha, IIRC.
You may be thinking of Jubilees, which is in a canonical situation similar to Enoch.
Forgot to mention this at the time, but she's one of my favorites. (Though AFAIK, there's only one of her.)

I'm the right age to have bonded with her as a character, but she was a bit of a miss for me. Ended up more into the prior generation of x-kids.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 03:54 AM   #666750 / #290
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I think that particular soap opera was nicked from Zoroastrianism from back when Jehovah was still merely one of the sons on Enlil,
himself merely a son of An.
Kinda like The Sons of Katie Elder, just fewer guns.
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That the problem with the faithful. No sense of deep time and the endlessly human foible of nicking each other's fairy stories. I still think Utnapishtim is a much cooler name than Noah.
Kinda like up-and-shit-em. They've been shitting us for millennia.

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Old 17 Mar 2017, 04:26 AM   #666752 / #291
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Enoch and Jude are part of the Apocrypha, IIRC.
You may be thinking of Jubilees, which is in a canonical situation similar to Enoch.
Forgot to mention this at the time, but she's one of my favorites. (Though AFAIK, there's only one of her.)

I'm the right age to have bonded with her as a character, but she was a bit of a miss for me. Ended up more into the prior generation of x-kids.
I'm old enough to have read the debut issues for all of the original Marvel characters. The Fantastic Four and the X-men are the ones I remember the most, though Spidey was in the mix too.

But Supergirl was the one who really got to me. I had a massive crush when she first appeared in 59, when I was 9 years old. I still remember reading the issue for the first time and was in a daze for weeks. I couldn't think of anything else.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 07:15 PM   #666765 / #292
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I think that particular soap opera was nicked from Zoroastrianism from back when Jehovah was still merely one of the sons on Enlil,
himself merely a son of An.

That the problem with the faithful. No sense of deep time and the endlessly human foible of nicking each other's fairy stories. I still think Utnapishtim is a much cooler name than Noah.
You're probably correct about the Satan figure being nicked from the Zoroastrians, as the whole lake of everlasting fire is one of theirs, too.

But I cannot atest to the 'sons of Enlil' thing, as I understood he was just a second string player in the Council of Canaanite (Ugaritic) gods, along with Dagon, Moloch, Ba'al, Astarte, Asherah and a host of others presided over by El. The young Jehovah was evidently allotted the Hebrews as his people, the poor sucker.
Fair enough. in this arena I think we can both agree that 'something of that nature is good enough to make the point that the one true God is less one or true than previously claimed.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 07:19 PM   #666766 / #293
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You may be thinking of Jubilees, which is in a canonical situation similar to Enoch.
Forgot to mention this at the time, but she's one of my favorites. (Though AFAIK, there's only one of her.)

I'm the right age to have bonded with her as a character, but she was a bit of a miss for me. Ended up more into the prior generation of x-kids.
I'm old enough to have read the debut issues for all of the original Marvel characters. The Fantastic Four and the X-men are the ones I remember the most, though Spidey was in the mix too.

But Supergirl was the one who really got to me. I had a massive crush when she first appeared in 59, when I was 9 years old. I still remember reading the issue for the first time and was in a daze for weeks. I couldn't think of anything else.
Mine was the mermaid from Marine Boy which shows a certain innocence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HqSkY4vtVY
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 07:38 PM   #666974 / #294
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I'm sure they used to make Christians out of sterner stuff. Oh well. looks like we are going to Hell after all. For a moment I was almost convinced, and then the evangelist bailed. I'm so disappointed.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 09:06 PM   #666985 / #295
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And he'll be going to hell with us, given that he only pays attention to the sweetness and light shit and ignores anything about stopping your "sinful" ways. Doesn't even know what constitutes "sin" for that matter. He doesn't want to expend any effort on salvation (other than trying to entrap other people in his delusion), or give anything up. Too inconvenient. So he convinces himself he gets salvation for free by spouting about "love" nonstop. Goddy-poo may have different ideas.

We'll have to save him a seat by the fire.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 09:31 AM   #667071 / #296
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Hey Gang,

I'm back. You have done an excellent job at denying the Bible and all it entails, and God. Well done. I apologize as I find myself too busy to even give your replies a good read, let alone reply in a timely fashion. I have though been trying to catch up on the reading, and yes, good answers that I promise I will use to try my faith against. Time wise though, it will be slow going to reply to it all, but I will continue, so please have patience.

For now, I will leave you with this question. So what is the answer then to all that we have before us - all of this stuff - these complex machines we call humans and animals - is that evolution in action? That's what I am guessing you are saying. That would make us humans the smartest things (that we know of I guess) in the Universe. If that is so, then, how come it took all this time for someone like Einstein to figure out what is happening in the Universe. E=Mc2, the law of gravity, etc - but that stuff has been there from the beginning. It's not just chaos - it's incredibly advanced mathematical intelligent design. So where did it come from? I'm going with the Bible which says that God did it. I don't see how you can believe that it all just came together by fluke. We can look at anything, a lot simpler, like say your computer and see that it would never just fall together. So how could the universe?

Thank you.

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Old 22 Mar 2017, 09:39 AM   #667072 / #297
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And he'll be going to hell with us, given that he only pays attention to the sweetness and light shit and ignores anything about stopping your "sinful" ways. Doesn't even know what constitutes "sin" for that matter. He doesn't want to expend any effort on salvation (other than trying to entrap other people in his delusion), or give anything up. Too inconvenient. So he convinces himself he gets salvation for free by spouting about "love" nonstop. Goddy-poo may have different ideas.

We'll have to save him a seat by the fire.
I believe that heaven will be hell to anyone who doesn't find love agreeable.

I do know what constitutes sin. I spend time on my salvation. I have given things up. I am not trying to entrap you, I am in this cafe telling you what I believe, same as you. I believe I have to work out my salvation same as everyone else, and I have chosen the Jesus solution. You have not convinced me yet that it does not exist (but then again, I haven't read Roo's books yet).
Goddy-poo may in fact hate me, but I'm doing my best.

I'll save you a seat beside me in heaven if you can stand the love.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 09:41 AM   #667073 / #298
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For a moment I was almost convinced,
I'm not done yet
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 10:25 AM   #667074 / #299
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Hey Gang,

I'm back. You have done an excellent job at denying the Bible and all it entails, and God. Well done. I apologize as I find myself too busy to even give your replies a good read, let alone reply in a timely fashion. I have though been trying to catch up on the reading, and yes, good answers that I promise I will use to try my faith against. Time wise though, it will be slow going to reply to it all, but I will continue, so please have patience.

For now, I will leave you with this question. So what is the answer then to all that we have before us - all of this stuff - these complex machines we call humans and animals - is that evolution in action? That's what I am guessing you are saying. That would make us humans the smartest things (that we know of I guess) in the Universe. If that is so, then, how come it took all this time for someone like Einstein to figure out what is happening in the Universe. E=Mc2, the law of gravity, etc - but that stuff has been there from the beginning. It's not just chaos - it's incredibly advanced mathematical intelligent design. So where did it come from? I'm going with the Bible which says that God did it. I don't see how you can believe that it all just came together by fluke. We can look at anything, a lot simpler, like say your computer and see that it would never just fall together. So how could the universe?
Hey 1ICrying,

Less charitable persons might cruelly accuse you of arrogance for asking new questions and adding new assertions while not replying to the ones addressed to you, but I'm not like that. Instead, I shall endeavour to make time to answer your questions once you've found time to answer mine because it's only fair to give you the chance to catch up on the backlog of issues you have not resolved before raising new ones.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 11:18 AM   #667079 / #300
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It doesn't matter which catastrophe it was. It was just an example of the stuff that wouldn't happen under a loving god. There are plenty of others.
I don't think it really counts that people do terrible stuff and that terrible stuff happens. We all draw an ace of spades eventually so I don't see how the particular circumstances ought to matter. The trick, as far as I understand it, is to keep on living without a body.
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