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Old 14 Mar 2017, 09:21 PM   #666572 / #251
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OK Hermit - I will address the two you pointed out. Seems pressing.

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I'm trying to convince you to change your mind. The Bible says that we should spread the Good news - Jesus has saved us. From what you ask?
You'd have a much better chance convincing me of the existence of a god if you chose a less absurd one.

I did not choose him. It was presented to me as 'The way' and upon further inspection, and indoctrination, I found that it was the way.

And yes, it is absurd. As absurd as a duck billed platypus on a planet flying through space.

I mean, where is the justice in putting enmity between all future men and women, multiplying their pain of childbirth and condemn them to toil for all their lives because the first two humans he created ate from the tree of knowledge?

[B]Apparently the Devil is to blame for a lot of the problems, As for the childbirth - that was acknowledged as a real kick in the pants - a result of the devil's pranks and our foolishness (not to obey God). So ya - a real consequence. I don't fully obviously understand what God was thinking, but he does admit that he is the creator ultimately of all good and all evil. So ya - don't get on his bad side, or things will seem bad. You need to trust that God knows more about Justice than you – his creation.

Why did he even feel the need to prohibit them from eating from it?

I don't know really. They say it was the knowledge of good and evil - something that we were not ready for. But we broke the big rule.


And why could he not just forgive them - and all future generations (who did not eat from the tree of knowledge, so I don't see why they were punished in the first place) without the need to scapegoat his own son?
Well, those are great questions. Here is my response

For me, whether or not the fruit and the tree thing really happened or is just symbolic, I don't know. But it should be looked at at least symbolically - surely it is in there for a reason. With that in mind,

Why did he not just forgive them?

Story goes. We had free will. We listened to the Devil. We became closer to the Devil at that point then God. But God has sent his Son, so that whoever believes in him etc. will be brought back over to God. For those who want to continue to hang with the bad guy, and to be disobedient, they will punished along with him.

Why did God not just forgive us without the whole Son scenario? I can’t really say for sure but that’s how the story goes. As I’ve said, like all good stories, the characters (us and Jesus) we have to overcome some great adversity before the happy ending. If he just forgave us – then no story.

As for the future generations – that symbolic story applies to each of us down through history. We are all flawed, we all need saving, and Christ was sent, not to judge the world, but to save those who would take his hand, by listening to his the story via the Bible and accepting and believing in that salvation. Why it is like that – I don’t know, anymore than I know why we were designed the way we are, but the Bible is clear about it. I see it as a very reasonable ask – to accept the salvation as was provided. We don’t even really need to do anything differently in our lives (though that does come as you learn more about love and build your life around love), but in the beginning, you are accepted as you are. It’s just an accepting of this salvation. Just accept it. The feeling you have that you don’t need saving is your pride whispering that you don’t need to listen to anyone other than yourself. It’s that same voice that whispered in Eve’s ear. We have a different choice. We screwed up the first time. We get a second chance, but we need to repent for our misdeeds, past and future. Those who do, God calls his own and will bring them home.

Yes, a strange story. I couldn’t have dreamed it up myself, but then I’m not God. This is his show, he’s calling the shots. He put his Son through the ringer for us, and all he wants is a simple – ‘thank you’ more than anything. And for those who can’t even muster that up, then I don’t blame him for what he does after the sacrifice he made.

Why did he have to make it? The story says because of the Devil's tricks, he needed to set thing straight. Further than that, I don't understand the Why. But that's the way the story goes and I am believing the story as it is, and accepting the salvation as has been described.

You guys are choosing the other route (not to) because you don’t believe the story of the Bible for various reasons. For some, I think you just don’t want to bow down to anyone but yourselves. For others – the story just doesn’t make sense, so you think it couldn’t be true. But God being God is beyond our understanding and so his ways would seem mysterious, wouldn't they. You think his ways would be obvious to a human that he created?

In the end, as the Bible predicts, we will have those who believe and those who don’t. The sperm who find the egg and those who don’t. I’m saying the egg is over here and you’re saying you don’t believe there is an egg (or if there was – why should you care – it doesn’t really mean anything). I’m saying the egg is over this way and it does matter – infinitely.

In closing, don’t go dumping the baby Jesus out with the bath water (of the limits of your understanding). Yes, it’s a crazy story – but don’t forget just how crazy this whole situation is here. Does flying around on a planet through a bunch of stars sound logical? No, none of it makes sense to us. You can chalk it up as evolution or modern life and say this makes sense and this does't, but overall, none of this existence makes any practical, quantifiable sense - but here we are, chatting on about this book.

So, I suggest to you as a friend that you take this salvation business seriously. No, it doesn’t come easy, especially to the prideful who refuse to show God the respect he obviously deserves (being God and all), but we are taught that God knows exactly what is in each of our hearts and will give us as we truly deserve. So there we go. No escape. We all need to work it out with fear and trembling. I’m humbly, being a sinner, accepting that salvation as I understand it.

That's all I got for tonight, or two. Thank you.

1I
Now I regret having prodded you for replies to my questions. Instead of answers I received a barrage of non sequiturs, evasions and plain nonsense. That is frustrating. Worse still is that you don't even realise that your entire post (with the exception where you simply said you don't know the answer to one of the questions) consists of them. That is downright depressing.

So I asked why god punishes all humans for what their ancestors had done. You replied that the devil did that. Plain fucking wrong, 1ICrying. Read Genesis 3:16-19. God meted out the punishment.

Next I asked why god forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. You said "Dunno" and "Dem's da rules." Oh. That's alright then, is it? No, it fucking isn't. It's an idiotic, capricious, totally unjustified rule.

Lastly I asked why god could not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son. You responded: "Because free will." WTF has free will got to do with the necessity for god to have his own son killed in order to be able to forgive?

The rest of your post is just unadulterated word salad. So, thanks for nothing, 1ICrying.
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 09:30 PM   #666573 / #252
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but here we are, chatting on about this book.
And the only reason we are "chatting about this book" is because people like you think there is something to chat about. There have been literally hundreds of gods. Why don't you chat about those?

Some people inexplicably think it means something and want to push it on others. I personally never would have sought it out. In my case, it was forced on me during childhood.

Regarding the rest of the post, nothing new here. Same shit as before, same shit we've heard a thousand times throughout our lifetimes.

I find it comical that you keep referring to it as "the story". We absolutely agree that it is a story. But Star Wars is a much more entertaining story about good vs. evil, and just as "real". Though I will concede that the jeebus crap gets a couple of points for not having Jar Jar Binks or Ewoks.
You don't realise what Jackrabbit and Roo St. Gallus did: This is a snapshot of a small part of the what an earthquake did. The resulting tsunami killed almost a quarter million humans in just a few hours. Were they all equally guilty of the divinely ordained death penalty? The thousands of babies that were among the dead too? If so, for what? Something that Adam and Eve did?

You have a strange idea of what it is like to live in the midst of this paradise.
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 09:56 PM   #666578 / #253
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I had to look hard at the picture before I picked one out. Once I'd done that, I could see others. Being charitable, I suppose 1ICrying did the same, and the bodies didn't register. It's not always easy to pick out detail from noise without an obvious context.
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 10:00 PM   #666580 / #254
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I didn't see bodies right away, but I still got the impression it was more than just a junk pile. Given the level of chaos, I thought all along that it looked like the result of some cataclysmic event rather than sloppy humans. So I assumed there were bodies somewhere, if not in the pic.
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 10:04 PM   #666584 / #255
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Indeed. More than enough.
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Old 15 Mar 2017, 12:12 AM   #666592 / #256
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I suggest to you as a friend that you take this salvation business seriously.
1I


You may think that's a joke, but the punchline is pretty damned serious.
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Old 15 Mar 2017, 07:57 PM   #666627 / #257
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To the very polite well meaning 1iCrying,

Let me say a few things, partially in your defense. I too was raised to believe the same things that you were. By the age off 7, I started suffering from cognitive dissonance so I frequently asked my father why a loving god would punish those who had never heard of his word or who had lead very good lives but never accepted that Jesus could save them from eternal punishment. He never could give me anything near a satisfactory answer, but being a child, I kept on trying to believe.

I was Baptized by being dunked at the age of 8, thinking this would confirm my faith. The night I was Baptized was a special one for me as I was the youngest person the pastor had ever dunked, but I had easily convinced the pastor and myself that I was earnest and wanted to please Jesus. It was a special event to me at the time and it made me feel grown up. I was sure I was on the right path.

But, somewhere hidden under all the ritual, the promises, the community, I saw a lot of contradictions. The hell fire and damnation bothered me.No loving god would do such a horrible thing. Still, being a child, I was able to keep believing and put the doubts in the back of my mind. Most of my best friends were Catholic and it made no sense that they were going to hell because my fundamentalist church pastor said so. I went though high school loosely holding on to my beliefs while never thinking very deeply about them, which made it easy to keep believing.

My parents told me if I wanted to go to college away from home, it must be a conservative Christian college. I chose Gordon College in Wenham, Ma, ironically enough, just down the road a few miles from the infamous town of Salem, Ma., known for the Witch Trials. Another example of the evil deeds of the true believers. One of Billy Graham's daughters was one of my classmates, although, she was never a friend. I'm sure my parents thought attending this college would make me a stronger Christian but the opposite thing happened.

After being around all those fundies for a couple of months, my faith became more and more challenged. What they were telling each other and the petty things they argued about, for example, the pretrib, posttrib rapture, the location of heaven, how long before the return of Jesus etc. etc. sounded nuttier and nuttier. Finally something happened one night at the college that made me see how absolutely insane/unrealistic all of these things were. From that moment, I became a seeker of truth, but no longer could accept the Bible in any literal way. I still had respect for some of the more positive messages in the NT, but I was probably what would be called an agnostic Christian by that time.

When I returned home, before starting the second trimester, I couldn't wait to tell my church friends that we had been lied to all the years of our childhood. I argued with them and pointed out some of the inconsistencies in the Bible, fully expecting them to see things my way. Instead, something happened that I will never forget, although it happened almost fifty years ago. One of my friends rolled her eyes, and said, "You think too much. Don't think so much." What an eye opener that was for me. I finally understood. I wasn't supposed to think about what I had been told or I would come to realize it was nonsensical. All I could think was, if god gave us a brain and the ability to solve problems and evaluate things, why were we supposed to accept things that didn't make the least bit of sense to any half way rational person. Another awakening for me. I tried to finish out the second trimester at Gordon, but it was too painful, so I transferred to a liberal arts college in my home town. To this day, my now 91 year old mother thinks it was the second college where my loss of faith took place. I've never had the heart to tell her the truth. Sorry, I digress.

It took me several years of thinking before I realized my atheism, before I came to terms with the fact that religion didn't have the answers I was seeking. That moment of enlightenment gave me a sense of peace and intellectual freedom that I had never before experienced. It helped me be more skeptical of just about everything that lacked evidence from that time forward.

So, I won't argue with you or demean you for holding to beliefs which to me are obviously false. I wish you the best in life. I think I realized that at least for now, you are too satisfied with your beliefs, perhaps too attached to your Christian community and too satisfied with the pathway you have taken. You long so much for eternal life, that these longings have probably blinded you. As long as you don't judge others, as Jesus commanded, as long as you do positive things in your life, despite what may seen like holding on to harmful beliefs, I have no problem with people like you. I've come to believe, for reasons that I may never understand, that some people are too anxious to to ride the long road out of the religion that holds power over them. So, it would be wrong of me to try and influence you other than to say that I hope reason will be your guide as you travel the road of life.

As to your comments about love, I have this to say. I sometimes wear a t-shirt when I work out, that says, "Love is all we need." I like the ideal but I realize that we all need a lot more than love. For example, if we were experiencing a severe shortage of food and water, I'm pretty sure that most of us would lose our love due to our extreme hunger and thirst and desire to survive. Love is an ideal. Love is easy when we all have our basic needs met. Love can be a burden at other times, so "love is all we need" is merely an ideal, a wish, but probably not something capable of solving all of our problems. Still, it's good to try and love. Love is far superior to hate, so I do try hard to have more love and less hate. I have a small bumper sticker on my car that says, "More wag. less bark" I'm obviously a dog lover but to me that says it all. I make it a point to try and see the positive in others. It can be a challenge but one that I at least try to accomplish in my life. Most of the time it woks out pretty well.

Whatever motivated you to seek us out, I thank you for coming here, and hope you will learn something from the discussion, despite the piling on.
I only share my own story to help you understand that some of us have been exposed to the same things as you, shared the same beliefs as you, but eventually realizing those beliefs could never hold up to the light of reason, we had to let them go.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 10:20 AM   #666677 / #258
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Now I regret having prodded you for replies to my questions. Instead of answers I received a barrage of non sequiturs, evasions and plain nonsense. That is frustrating. Worse still is that you don't even realise that your entire post (with the exception where you simply said you don't know the answer to one of the questions) consists of them. That is downright depressing.


So I asked why god punishes all humans for what their ancestors had done. You replied that the devil did that. Plain fucking wrong, 1ICrying. Read Genesis 3:16-19. God meted out the punishment.
I know God meted out the punishment, but just like when your children do something wrong, you punish them. Why - to teach them the errors of their ways etc. What they did wrong is listen to the Diablo.

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Next I asked why god forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. You said "Dunno" and "Dem's da rules." Oh. That's alright then, is it? No, it fucking isn't. It's an idiotic, capricious, totally unjustified rule.
They were forbidden from it because they were unable to handle it. They released all of the evils that only God could handle - including death. So, they screwed up and put God in a bad position. Just like if your kid gets into your porn collection - it's off limits, so, justifiable and non-idiotic.

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Lastly I asked why god could not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son. You responded: "Because free will." WTF has free will got to do with the necessity for god to have his own son killed in order to be able to forgive?
Because we got into this mess (which, if we are going to go with the story on this one - was that we were really and truly tricked by the devil), then there had to be this real sacrifice to set things straight again. (to help man get away from the evils, including death). So, it had to be this sacrifice. If the tricking part was real, then the sacrifice had to be real. He couldn't just snap his fingers and go back (in this story - which I'm saying is our real history here in this galaxy).

Ultimately, I ponder, could God have snapped his fingers and gone back - or wiped us out and started over again? Yes. I would imagine he could. Though, He runs into the problem whenever he dishes out the free will (which he does because He doesn't want automatons). So he does but then He is going to have those who oppose him - and want to be the top Dog. So He then has this fight on his hands. There is a scuffle. God, being all powerful God, defeats the uprising, and things settle down again. Those who sided with God all along are blessed. Those who opposed him get punished. Apparently he spits the look warm water out as well.

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The rest of your post is just unadulterated word salad. So, thanks for nothing, 1ICrying.

Well, I'll continue to answer these the best I can Hermit. It's not like I ever claimed to know the answer to every single question you can imagine such as 'what was God thinking when......: I can only say that I don't know. I can surmise, but the Bible says again and again that his ways are mysterious and beyond our understanding. An easy out, I know, devoid of any real hard evidence. C'es la vie.

1I

Ps: as for the dead bodies floating around. Yes, not nice. Again, that's what happens on Earth when you dish out free will - bad things happen - no more Garden of Eden. So, we need to get through this to get back to that Garden (ie - heaven). I never said this life now was a paradise, but if you did strip away 'the evil that men do' what would you have? Paradise. Heaven is apparently even infinitely better - completely mind blowing.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 10:55 AM   #666678 / #259
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Hi Sohy - nice to hear from you. I would like to comment further on your post, but so many posts, so little time. Nice to learn about you though Sohy. I would like to just get in this 2 cents.

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realizing those beliefs could never hold up to the light of reason, we had to let them go.
So you fell away from the faith eh.
Jesus said in The Parable of the Sower
(Mark 4:1-9; Luke 8:4-15)

“A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.

Some fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil. They sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

Other seeds fell among the thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

Still other seeds fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.

He who has ears,a let him hear.”

Next he explained himself:

The Parable of the Sower Explained
(Mark 4:13-20)
18Consider, then, the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the message of the kingdom but does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and promptly receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.

22The seed sown among the thorns is the one who hears the word, but the worries of this world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23But the seed sown on good soil is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and produces a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.”





That's why we are encouraged to "Keep the Faith". You say the Bible and God were not reasonable enough for you?It really all is unbelievable. This life is not reasonable. When dealing with God we need to leave our Earthly reason behind and take that leap of faith. The Bible teaches again and again the importance of faith. (I know, I know - this cult really covered all the angles).

There is absolutely no real good reason that we are here on this planet - flying through space, but here we are. Where is the light of reason for that. For me - it's described in the Bible, but for you? Do we die and that's it? What would be the point?


Thank you Sohy.

1I
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 11:02 AM   #666679 / #260
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So I asked why god punishes all humans for what their ancestors had done. You replied that the devil did that. Plain fucking wrong, 1ICrying. Read Genesis 3:16-19. God meted out the punishment.
I know God meted out the punishment, but just like when your children do something wrong, you punish them. Why - to teach them the errors of their ways etc. What they did wrong is listen to the Diablo.
At best one could understand why god punished the people who disobeyed his command. What I would like to know is why god saw fit to punish people who were not even born when Adam and Eve disobeyed.

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Next I asked why god forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. You said "Dunno" and "Dem's da rules." Oh. That's alright then, is it? No, it fucking isn't. It's an idiotic, capricious, totally unjustified rule.
They were forbidden from it because they were unable to handle it. They released all of the evils that only God could handle - including death. So, they screwed up and put God in a bad position. Just like if your kid gets into your porn collection - it's off limits, so, justifiable and non-idiotic.
If you believe there was no death before Adam and Eve ate the fruit it I can only conclude that you are a fundamentalist Christian.


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Lastly I asked why god could not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son. You responded: "Because free will." WTF has free will got to do with the necessity for god to have his own son killed in order to be able to forgive?
Because we got into this mess, then there had to be this real sacrifice to set things straight again.
Forgiveness requires sacrifice? You need to explain the underlying logic to this assertion.

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Ultimately, I ponder, could God have snapped his fingers and gone back - or wiped us out and started over again? Yes. I would imagine he could.
Like, say, causing a global flood?

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Ps: as for the dead bodies floating around. Yes, not nice.
Spectacularly understated. Once again: Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Must I remind you that thousands of babies would have been among the quarter million who died within a few hours because of that earthquake.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 12:59 PM   #666680 / #261
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There is absolutely no real good reason that we are here on this planet - flying through space, but here we are. Where is the light of reason for that. For me - it's described in the Bible, but for you? Do we die and that's it? What would be the point?
Why does there have to be a purpose, other than the very specific ones that we make for ourselves? And, if there is an all powerful god, where did he/she come from? How can such a powerful entity exist out of nothing? I find that belief to be far more absurd than simply believing that we exist by chance, as a result of evolution. If you are able to believe that an all powerful god can exist without any explanation, then why is it so difficult, that we humans are the result of evolution and that the universe exists for reasons that we don't fully understand. Why can't it all be random?

I've lived 67 years on the planet, far longer than the many generations of humans before me. I'm thankful for that. I'm an RN so I've watched countless numbers of people die. It's not a scary thing if you have good people caring for you, not even if you are an atheist. It's just hard on those that love us watching us fade away.

Have a good day 1iCrying.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 01:54 PM   #666682 / #262
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Ps: as for the dead bodies floating around. Yes, not nice. Again, that's what happens on Earth when you dish out free will - bad things happen
You said exactly what I predicted you would say, blaming the victims. Fancy that.

These things don't "just happen". (Well, they do in real life, but not in your mythology.) This fucker supposedly has control of them. It's dishonest to claim it happened by chance.
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- no more Garden of Eden. So, we need to get through this to get back to that Garden (ie - heaven). I never said this life now was a paradise, but if you did strip away 'the evil that men do' what would you have? Paradise. Heaven is apparently even infinitely better - completely mind blowing.
This is the most disgusting thing you have said yet. The "evil that men do" being responsible for huge numbers of people being killed, including babies. You know, because babies are apparently evil too.

And much of this "evil" is not actually doing anything wrong, but is merely not believing in Cosmic Fuckface. Yet many of the things that you do (unmarried sex for example) are specifically classified as evil in the mythology.

You apparently don't realize what a horrific monster you are for "loving" this incredibly vicious asshole of a god.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 02:41 PM   #666684 / #263
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There is absolutely no real good reason that we are here on this planet - flying through space, but here we are. Where is the light of reason for that. For me - it's described in the Bible
It is? Where exactly?

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Do we die and that's it? What would be the point?
That question only makes sense from a cult perspective; i.e., that our existence is the result of a purposeful creator. Iow, we were created for a purpose. But your claim above aside, the creator imagined in the Bible is an ineffable being whose "plan" cannot be known by humanity. Indeed, as you went to great lengths to point out, it is supposed to be taken "on faith" alone.

So the best you can do is say, "I have faith that my existence has purpose."

Now let's look at glimmers of that "purpose" shall we? Without getting into an endless cherry-picking session, in general the only "purpose" one can find in the Bible is that we are to serve or "worship" (or "obey") God. Yes, we are to take care of each other--insert the Golden Rule here, of course--but in so far as trying to figure out why this being supposedly created us, it is basically to do God's bidding and to worship "him."

But, again, we are stuck with the problem of not being able to ever know what this being's "bidding" actually is. It's an ineffable plan, so for all we could ever possibly know, Jeffrey Dahmer's actions (for horrific example to prove the point) were all fully orchestrated--and certainly known--by God and Dahmer's "spirit" is right now being rewarded in heaven for playing such a horrible role in God's plan.

So, again, in regard to doing God's bidding, we have only the Golden Rule as a general guideline but no guarantee. It's basically a crap shoot. Which leaves the idea of worship as our "purpose." No matter how you slice that one ("it really means 'obey'" "no, it means to 'follow'"), it means that such a being is deeply psychologically flawed. Consider the fact that such a being is supposedly "all knowing." So it knows--before it creates you--whether or not you are going to worship it. It wants you to worship it, but it already knows you won't. So it punishes you for not doing so.

Yes, I know (I can hear the cult programming kicking in); "God doesn't punish, you punish yourself" but that's just the apologetic bandaid to hide a glaring inconsistency in the cult dogma. We're talking about our purpose--the reason why God "created" us--so no matter what, it's rigged into the system that we are punished for not worshipping "him." That system was created by this being, so trying to spin it that we punish ourselves is cute and all, but no matter what the "creator" of the system that results in our being punished is to blame for our being punished. "Free will" doesn't solve the problem; it merely attempts to obfuscate it.

But let's look beyond us to why such a being would need. Just full stop. Why would such a being have needs or wants such that it would create us out of nothing in order to see whether or not we do something it would already know we do or do not do? Setting aside for the moment that worship/believing/faith is a transitory state--today I can have faith in the sun rising, tomorrow I can not and then a week from now I have it again; it's not a permanent condition--our "souls" are supposedly eternal, so why does the flesh matter at all? We are (apparently) judged for our actions--actions this being already knows we will commit before it created us--but only when in flesh. So what's the big deal with flesh? It would be like us passing a law stating that humans will only be held accountable for actions they take while driving in a car. Once outside of the car, they can commit no crimes and have no crisis in faith, but while they're in the car? THAT is what matters. Why? If the soul is the actual entity that has free will, then it shouldn't matter what temporary vessel it drives around, yet....It's ALL contingent on that temporary vessel; a vessel that an eternal being will have occupied for less than a blink of an eye in regard to an eternal existence.

Blink your eyes right now. In that random blink you have been judged for all eternity for exactly what was in your mind at that moment by a judge who created you and knew what was in your mind at that moment and who created the system of punishment for that very moment.

But wait, there's more! This same being evidently decided that the system it created wasn't very fair, apparently, so it trifurcated (Father/Son/Holy Ghost) and sent one part of itself into flesh in order to kill itself as a necessary sacrifice to itself to stop it from punishing all of us, BUT there was yet another "catch": We had to all "believe" that's what "he" did.

Why? The purpose of ALL of that was to "forgive" us for a sin we never committed (it was Adam's and Eve's "sin" of disobedience). So why not simply "forgive" us or, far more simple, not set up a system of punishment in the first place that is based entirely on someone else's disobedience?

Again, I can hear the cult programming gears turning in your head, but that too is just a patch to slap over the hole of a poorly thought out cult dogma, the long and the short of which is, once again, no matter how you slice it, there is no "purpose" for your existence to be found in the Bible. If it is to worship/obey God, then it's not purpose, it's psychologically disturbing servitude. If it is to be the best that WE can be (to "choose" good over evil; where "good" is defined as "choosing to obey God" and evil is "choosing to not obey God"), then why did such a being create good and/or evil to begin with just to watch us "choose" what it already knows we will have chosen before it created us?

Slapping a label that reads "PURPOSE" on a crap load of nonsense that doesn't actually provide you with any sense of what your purpose truly is and repeating it over and over and over and over throughout your childhood so it just automatically goes "DING" whenever someone rings that bell is not purpose. It's programming.

ETA: If you REALLY want to get into "free will" then consider this: how can we possibly choose to "obey" ("worship" "believe in") an ineffable being if we cannot accurately judge its actions? If we can't accurately discern what is "good" over what is "bad" (and we cannot due to its ineffability) then we effectively have no purpose. Which is why you're indoctrinated to have "faith." Round and round and round it goes.

So if our "purpose" is to figure out for ourselves what is good/bad (and God is just somehow helping us to discover that, but without interfering in our free will) then WE determine what our purpose is. Just like we would without a god.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 05:05 PM   #666693 / #264
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 05:38 PM   #666696 / #265
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Ps: as for the dead bodies floating around. Yes, not nice. Again, that's what happens on Earth when you dish out free will - bad things happen - no more Garden of Eden.

A lower bound on how long the San Andreas Fault has been slipping and hammering out earthquakes is 23 million years. Humans have occupied California for around 19,000 years.

Do you reject those numbers as absurd? If so, what numbers would you replace them with?

If you accept them as being plausible, this presents a theological puzzle. Over 99% of the earthquakes on the San Andreas didn't frighten, injure, or kill sinful humans, though they may well have distressed non-human creatures who were already living there. What would be the Creator's purpose in running the world that way?

(I presented this question to another Christian online years ago. His reply was a contemptuous dismissal, along the lines of "What in the world does that silly stuff have to do with anything?" I am hoping you are more intellectually honest than he is.)
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 05:42 PM   #666697 / #266
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Ultimately, I ponder, could God have snapped his fingers and gone back - or wiped us out and started over again? Yes. I would imagine he could.
Like, say, causing a global flood?
It's comical how he tries to push this shit without knowing a thing about it. The Jeebus Follies. It's so unfair. The Three Stooges were at least paid for saying and doing idiotic things.

And the watery reboot didn't even work, given that the religious are still pissing and moaning about "sin". Goddy-poo is vicious and incompetent.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 05:47 PM   #666698 / #267
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His reply was a contemptuous dismissal, along the lines of "What in the world does that silly stuff have to do with anything?"
Actually, that's a perfect response to anyone who even mentions the Talking Donkey Book in any context.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:13 PM   #666700 / #268
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Enoch and Jude are part of the Apocrypha, IIRC.
You may be thinking of Jubilees, which is in a canonical situation similar to Enoch.
Forgot to mention this at the time, but she's one of my favorites. (Though AFAIK, there's only one of her.)

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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:16 PM   #666701 / #269
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Ultimately, I ponder, could God have snapped his fingers and gone back - or wiped us out and started over again? Yes. I would imagine he could.
Like, say, causing a global flood?
It's comical how he tries to push this shit without knowing a thing about it. The Jeebus Follies. It's so unfair. The Three Stooges were at least paid for saying and doing idiotic things.

And the watery reboot didn't even work, given that the religious are still pissing and moaning about "sin". Goddy-poo is vicious and incompetent.
Bad seed.

He was probably teased by the other gods when he was a godlet.

Here's a musical interlude compliments of Harry Nilsson.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:30 PM   #666702 / #270
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:33 PM   #666703 / #271
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I realize that my comment about the victims of the Tsunami was incorrect. My apologies. I had man-made problems on the brain and this was obviously God-created.

What Do Christians say when Natural Disasters strike? Here is one explanation.

Thanks -


In this interview with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, originally published in the wake of the 2011 Japan earthquake and tsunami, the pastor and author answers questions about God’s role in natural disasters. On May 27-29, 2014, Dr. Lutzer will hold a seminar at The Billy Graham Training Center at The Cove. He’ll be discussing “the hidden realities of God’s invisible world.” Seminar-only tickets are still available, but The Cove’s two inns are full.

Where was God when tornadoes swept through half a dozen states from Arkansas to Alabama, leaving a trail of grief and chaos?

In the wake of loss and disaster, we struggle to understand how a God who is all-powerful and all-knowing can also be considered good and loving. Pastor and teacher Erwin Lutzer tackles this tough subject head-on in his book, Where Was God?

Q: Can you address something we hear many times, which is “Why would God allow natural disasters?”

Lutzer: One thing we have to remember is that the world is fallen. The Bible says that when man fell into sin, all of nature was cursed. In other words, it was impossible for a sinful man to live in a perfect environment of paradise, so all of nature is cursed.

But having said that, it doesn’t mean that God has a hands-off policy when it comes to natural disasters. Many people want to protect God from the clear teaching of the Bible, which shows He is involved in natural disasters. It is not that God causes them, but the very fact that He could prevent them shows that we need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within God’s providence.

Let me give you a few examples. During the time of the plagues in Egypt, clearly God sent those plagues. Then you have the time of Noah; the flood obviously was sent by God. It says regarding Jonah, God hurled a storm into the sea. We must see God in natural disasters. The question, of course, is why does he allow them and what is there to be learned.

Q: What kinds of lessons can we learn from natural disasters?

Dr. Lutzer: Natural disasters are a megaphone from God and they teach us various lessons. First of all, natural disasters show us the uncertainty of life. Thousands of people wake up in the morning not knowing what is going to happen that day, such as the terrible devastation in Haiti and elsewhere. There was a couple that left California because they were afraid of earthquakes. Then when they came to Missouri, they were killed in a tornado. We can’t get away from the reality that life is very, very short and it’s possible for us to delude ourselves.

When we look at the news and see these disasters, it’s like a preview of the natural disasters that will someday come upon the earth. When you look at the second coming of Christ, you find many different natural disasters connected with it.

Q: What can Christians say to neighbors and friends who question whether God can be merciful and loving and allow disasters to happen?

Dr. Lutzer: One of the greatest challenges we have as Christians is to somehow continue to believe God and to trust Him in the midst of horrendous devastation. When you see children being separated from their fathers and mothers, when you see lives being torn and hundreds of people dead, it is very natural to ask the question, “Where is God?”

What we need to realize is that God can be trusted, even when it seems as if He is not on our side. We have to point people to the fact that God has intervened in our planet by sending Jesus Christ. There we see the love of God most clearly.

It was Martin Luther who said, “When you look around and wonder whether God cares, you must always hurry to the cross and you must see Him there.”

The other thing you need to realize is that time is short and eternity is long. Some times we reverse that. The values that we have here on this earth, although life is precious, the fact is that earthquakes do not increase death. Everybody is going to die someday. It’s the way they die that causes us so much grief.

When we hear about a natural disaster we should grieve with those who grieve. And we should ask what we can do to alleviate their suffering.

Finally, I think this is the best illustration. All of Job’s 10 children died in a natural disaster. There was a wind storm that blew down the house. Job was confronted with the fact that because of a natural disaster, there are 10 fresh graves on the hilltop. So now what is he going to do?

His wife says to curse God and die. But Job said, “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Job shows us it is possible to worship God even without explanations, even when we don’t know all the reasons. Those who worship God under those conditions are especially blessed.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:38 PM   #666704 / #272
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Iow, the minute you start to doubt the cult, stop doubting the cult and you won't doubt the cult.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:39 PM   #666705 / #273
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God doesn't exist, mate. It's faerie tale stuff you were skullfucked with since birth.

You were programmed well, I must admit.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:44 PM   #666706 / #274
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For what it's worth, I didn't see the bodies in the pic until people pointed it out...
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 06:45 PM   #666707 / #275
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Damn....I'm running out of popcorn and the intellectual level just took a step....up?

I'm surprised somebody has not dragged the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Dragon in My Garage, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Russell's Teapot in to the discussion yet.

I mean, if 1I can posit (or deposit) one, why can't everybody else? The more the merrier!
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