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Old 27 Nov 2017, 10:05 AM   #681179 / #1
justme
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You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 10:21 AM   #681180 / #2
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You're a person, good at heart, trying to cope with problems as best you can. That's all that counts.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:25 AM   #681184 / #3
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You're a person, good at heart, trying to cope with problems as best you can. That's all that counts.
Thank you sir. I hust want to confirm that I reject the evangrlistic ties with conservatism and those who wish to use government as a tool of religious cleansing. The government should stay completely out of religion and religion completely out of Government. Any crossovers in this sets up the posibility of a theocratic tyrany, which I would fight tooth and nail.

The same is true for the LGBT. Many Christian's say that God didn't make any mistake. Me myself being Transgender feel that those types of people use themselves as a standard for correctness and a example of what perfection is and that is simply arrogance. What we are is different, but not deviant. We all made as unique individuals by him so that we can more easily understand those who like us are just as unique and I apologize to those who have been wronged by these So-called religious activists. They want their own world with their own Biblical interpretation and that is wrong. Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, not a policing of the world around us. This place we call America is not a Christian country any more than any other country. It may be saturated with the idea of Christianity, but that idea was corrupted and confiscated by those who have tried to justify their own actions as If It was his will that the slaughter, pilage and enslave their fellow man.

I have no problem with anyone who embraces their sexuality, in fact I encourage it because we need to explore and understand ourselves as individuals. If we do not than we deny ourselves the blessing of being who we truly are. We can more honestly deal with the world around us. I reject the idea that God created marriage so therefore Gays should not be able to marry. I think those that feel differently are blinded by those who lust for power and they overstep the authority given them by God. Marriage is an institution created by the Romans to deal with issues of inheritance. The Catholic church, as it has done so many timews before confiscated a pagan ritual for their benefit.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:25 AM   #681185 / #4
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You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin
I'm happy it's working for you. But you're talking an emotional need. Not about the existence of God. Belief in God works for you on an emotional level. Good for you. But you can get all that without accepting absurd scientific ideas. The last couple of years there's been a major movement towards atheistic religion, for this reason.

In 2012 me and some friends started Syntheism.

http://syntheism.org/

We had the idea that perhaps there's positive things about religion after all, and that the only real problem with religion was the belief in God. So we thought we could create a religion, just without God. So we did.

It didn't take long before it took off and now it's massive and international. Thousands of members spread out over the world. Temples in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Gothemburg and probably places that I forgot.

I'm not that involved any longer. It got a life of its own, and is just continually growing.

I'm not saying, join our group. I'm saying that it's not that hard creating and joining a religion that makes sense. Christianity just doesn't.

Spirituality is an actual thing. Loads of the stuff in religion is just practical advice. I personally see God as an emotional tool. It's somewhere to direct your gratitude for being alive. You can do all that without actually believing in an actual magical God. I think it was Habermas who defined God as "the name with give to our hopes and dreams".

I also feel filled up by the holy spirit on a regular basis. I'm still an atheist. There's a hell of a lot going for spiritual practices, that aren't woo. Perhaps try some of that? There's Yoga or Buddhist meditation? There's loads out there.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to sacrifice science and common sense because you feel that a religion is helping you.

I also suggest reading up on cognitive dissonance. It's unpleasant being in cognitive dissonance. So we subconsciously manage it by minimising facts of the opposing side. We know how the psychology of this works. There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.

And of course you'll be no less welcome here as a theist. We're not much of sceptics if our "faith" is unable to cope with criticism. Any belief is worthless if it isn't tested. Including atheism.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 11:54 AM   #681189 / #5
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.

I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.

I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 01:39 PM   #681198 / #6
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.
Yes, there are plenty of Christians who are great scientists. Do you know what scientists also are? Smart. Smart people find creative ways to work around cognitive dissonance. I've read several studies on religious top level scientists. What they have in common is that their concept of God tends to be really bizarre. Really out there and beyond the mundane stuff that your Sunday priest are talking about. Also so conceptually advanced that most people wouldn't get it even if they'd had it explained to them. A smart person being Christian is hardly going to have the same concept of God as a dumb person.

Which brings me to my next point. I'm one of those who aren't convinced that the people who wrote the Bible necessarily believed in God in the regular sense. Because we know they belonged to the educated intellectual elite. That means that they must have mastered Greek philosophy, understood how metaphor and symbolism works. They would also be familiar with how pagan theology works.

Religious texts, ie sacred texts, are written for all people. That means both smart and dumb people. I believe that the Bible operates on (at least) two levels. Some of it will be simplified and easily digestible, while some of it will have depth to it. Any enduring religious text will have both.

You can read the Bible as if you were a pagan. Then it becomes a work only intended to inspire. Rather than some sort of manual for getting into heaven. It also makes the whole concept of I'm-right-and-you-are-wrong moot.

...and why do I believe these guys belonged to an educated elite? Because they could write. Most people in that elite couldn't even write. So they're at the very top of an exceedingly pointy pyramid.

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I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.
He/she clearly made a different impression on you and me.

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I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
Good for you, and we seem to have the same world view. I think it's important to have a spiritual practice.

That said, I do believe that belief in a literal God (as in magic and the supernatural) is pure evil and a doorway to mayhem and destruction (too large for comfort). The moment we treat "faith" as a positive trait we're already at the bottom of that slippery slope.

The main problem with both Christianity and Islam today is that the most shallow, simplistic and dumbest forms of these religions are completely dominant today. I'm convinced it's gone so far I think they're both beyond redemption today. Which is why I went elsewhere to search for spiritual guidance.

I'm not saying you can't find it within the church. One of the best and most honest philosophy lectures I ever heard was from a Jesuit monk. But the priests I've met in person have all, at some point, said some really shallow dumb shit. If there exists some Christian priests out there with some spiritual depth to them, they sure have been hiding from me.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 12:35 AM   #681370 / #7
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.

I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.

I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
I know a lot of scientists, really a lot, and I don't know any that profess christian beliefs. Of course, they may just not talk about it. That said, well over half have what we colloquially call 'spiritual outlooks'. Of those, many apply as deep a skepticism towards the philosophical implications of a physicalist view of science as they do towards the design of any experiment. I might go so far as to say that the default position among those that have a spiritual outlook is that all we have ruled out through science are ideas that humans have articulated over the millennia, one over infinity perhaps. And that the figurative truths of religion are sometimes the deepest truths we have as a species.

I personally am somewhat on the fence about that but am definitely not opposed to the idea. I definitely think that if you are asking god for emotional support and god delivers that, then that's a good thing and I really have no adequate vantage point from which to pass judgment. However, if god starts telling a person how other people should feel, that's a different ballgame and the defenses go up.

Justme, whatever works. God is a complicated word. You certainly don't need to accept anyone else's definitions and are probably lucky to have found your peace. I think maybe most people never do.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 01:39 AM   #681375 / #8
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He is an entity who can and does at his own discretion, takes steps to influence the world he made for those who have given him the respect and acknowledgement of being who he is.
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I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know.
Can't have it both ways, justme. You can claim knowledge about God, or you can admit ignorance- but if you start talking about what God wants, or is, you are contradicting your claim of ignorance.

If you want to use Jesus as some sort of coping mechanism, hey, whatever gets you through the nights, and days. But feeling something is true doesn't make it true- not for you, or anyone else.

I will say that laying your troubles in the arms o' Jaysus isn't going to do a single thing to make those troubles better, even if it may make you feel better about them for a while.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 02:05 AM   #681377 / #9
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I will say that laying your troubles in the arms o' Jaysus isn't going to do a single thing to make those troubles better, even if it may make you feel better about them for a while.
it sounds like it's doing something to make those troubles better. IMO, far too little emphasis is put on the general how you feel about life category. Troubles are troubles because of how we feel about them. That's kind of how we define troubles. Some troubles need material fixes but those are, I think, the vast minority of troubles. A free spirit is untroubled, as they say, or at least as they should say.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 04:23 PM   #681420 / #10
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He is an entity who can and does at his own discretion, takes steps to influence the world he made for those who have given him the respect and acknowledgement of being who he is.
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I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know.
Can't have it both ways, justme. You can claim knowledge about God, or you can admit ignorance- but if you start talking about what God wants, or is, you are contradicting your claim of ignorance.

If you want to use Jesus as some sort of coping mechanism, hey, whatever gets you through the nights, and days. But feeling something is true doesn't make it true- not for you, or anyone else.

I will say that laying your troubles in the arms o' Jaysus isn't going to do a single thing to make those troubles better, even if it may make you feel better about them for a while.
That's like saying that I can't say what I know about you because I don't know everything about you.

This isn't a debate Jobar I am answering questions that are put to me by members here as best that I can. I'm not promoting anything or justifying myself.

That is what I said when I first started this and I do so, again now.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 02:06 AM   #681378 / #11
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.

I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.

I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
I know a lot of scientists, really a lot, and I don't know any that profess christian beliefs. Of course, they may just not talk about it. That said, well over half have what we colloquially call 'spiritual outlooks'. Of those, many apply as deep a skepticism towards the philosophical implications of a physicalist view of science as they do towards the design of any experiment. I might go so far as to say that the default position among those that have a spiritual outlook is that all we have ruled out through science are ideas that humans have articulated over the millennia, one over infinity perhaps. And that the figurative truths of religion are sometimes the deepest truths we have as a species.

I personally am somewhat on the fence about that but am definitely not opposed to the idea. I definitely think that if you are asking god for emotional support and god delivers that, then that's a good thing and I really have no adequate vantage point from which to pass judgment. However, if god starts telling a person how other people should feel, that's a different ballgame and the defenses go up.

Justme, whatever works. God is a complicated word. You certainly don't need to accept anyone else's definitions and are probably lucky to have found your peace. I think maybe most people never do.
Thank you for this.

I have heard of Scientists that were Christian but I'm not going to do any research on the matter. The way I see science is that it is an social and economic imperative. We simply can not surive in a world without a concerted effort in the revelations of learning. It is an essential part of our humanity that we seek out the answers to everything, including spiritualism and philosophy.

The only people who are afraid of Science are those who have something to loose by it and that is not religion. Religion and science should remain two separate entities as the concentrate, or should on separate areas of the human experience.

The one thing I've come to understand that everybody needs the benefits of science but only some need religion, because of free will. I'm not going to preach God here, so I will say that those who seek religion have something missing in their lives that religion fulfills. I think everyone has something missing from their life, but they find what they need in relationships, areas of expertise or even these websites.

I know there are some out there who are avidly against God, religion or anything to do with spiritualism and I'm sure that the abuses that religion has inflicted upon the world may be at the heart of this distaste. I know that these feelings are justified, especially when so many who claim religion have been tyrannical when they held the opinion of the public and when they lost it , whiny and bitter claiming to be victims of intolerance when they have been that way since time memorial. I fully acknowledge this and I grieve for those people who were put through Hell because of it.

I don't think that religion came to be with that intent and I don't think that the run of the mill Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or whatever runs lock step with those who claim to be the leaders of their perspective faiths, when it comes to dealing with outsiders. I think those within the hierarchy needed something to demonize in order for them to remain in control and through the years their ploy has gotten old and a tipping point has been reached and that is where we find ourselves right now.

My need is being fulfilled by the course of actions I have taken and I am pleased with that. If others find comfort elsewhere, it is not on me, but I will fight tooth and nail to have that right, even If I have to fight the Church to do it.

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Old 29 Nov 2017, 09:18 AM   #681397 / #12
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There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.
That's absolute bollocks. There may be not enough room in some heads perhaps, but I know plenty of Christians who are great scientists. I don't know where you are from - maybe in your part of the world you have only been exposed to particularly rabid evangelical type Christians, but that is not all there is.

I am quite sure that justme isn't going to turn into one of those, so will not suddenly start denying scientific fact.

I confess a vested interest. I have been getting a lot more spiritual lately. For the last few years I have been going along to my wife's church on a Sunday. Initially, this was just to support her (actually to start with I was kind of dragged along), but more recently I admit I have been going for myself. In fact, she is away at the moment, visiting family, and I went without her. I don't see it in any way a contradiction with my scientific training. And pretty much everyone in the church has a more liberal and accepting view of gays and transgenders than I have - in fact, I have been challenged by this somewhat. While I would not go so far as accepting it as a literal truth, I am willing to accept there is a lot of figurative truth and awareness of the human condition in their beliefs.
I know a lot of scientists, really a lot, and I don't know any that profess christian beliefs. Of course, they may just not talk about it. That said, well over half have what we colloquially call 'spiritual outlooks'. Of those, many apply as deep a skepticism towards the philosophical implications of a physicalist view of science as they do towards the design of any experiment. I might go so far as to say that the default position among those that have a spiritual outlook is that all we have ruled out through science are ideas that humans have articulated over the millennia, one over infinity perhaps. And that the figurative truths of religion are sometimes the deepest truths we have as a species.

I personally am somewhat on the fence about that but am definitely not opposed to the idea. I definitely think that if you are asking god for emotional support and god delivers that, then that's a good thing and I really have no adequate vantage point from which to pass judgment. However, if god starts telling a person how other people should feel, that's a different ballgame and the defenses go up.

Justme, whatever works. God is a complicated word. You certainly don't need to accept anyone else's definitions and are probably lucky to have found your peace. I think maybe most people never do.
First off, it's not been studied that much. There's just been a couple of surveys. And most of those surveys do not go into detail what they believe. In many cultures religion is more about identity than belief. "Faith" is actually a bad word for religion. Because belonging to most religions is about doing the rituals. Rather than what you believe. Most gods can't or don't give a rats ass what it's devotees are thinking. They just want their idols washed with goats milk or whatever. The term faith is only going to be aplicable to Christian and Muslim scientists.

https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldw...cientists.html

And to my knowledge the only good study of what people actually believe is the American religious identification study. That one, predictably, only covers Americans. And I think we all can agree that USA, for a western country, is a weird country. The rest of the west are way ahead when it comes to secularization.

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/

In USA about 15% of top level scientists within hard sciences are religious (not atheists). If we include soft sciences that number rises to 40%.

Outside USA we have no clue. In Pakistan being an atheist is illegal. How many Pakistani scientists do you think will answer honestly on a poll? In India Hinduism is fully compatible with atheism. An atheistic Indian with a Hindu family has no reason not to answer that they're not Hindus.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 12:25 PM   #681192 / #13
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You know things are not working out for me and haven't been. I've been dancing around about this trying to skirt the issue , which isn't working out either.

I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.

I apologize to those here who I've kept in the dark about this. I was week to do so and that wasn't fair to anyone including me.

This is a place I am comfortable with and with the people I like. I do wish to stay and I will not force any issue about Christianity, but I will try to answer anyone's questions as well as I can. Thank you and have a great day. Kevin
I'm happy it's working for you. But you're talking an emotional need. Not about the existence of God. Belief in God works for you on an emotional level. Good for you. But you can get all that without accepting absurd scientific ideas. The last couple of years there's been a major movement towards atheistic religion, for this reason.

In 2012 me and some friends started Syntheism.

http://syntheism.org/

We had the idea that perhaps there's positive things about religion after all, and that the only real problem with religion was the belief in God. So we thought we could create a religion, just without God. So we did.

It didn't take long before it took off and now it's massive and international. Thousands of members spread out over the world. Temples in Stockholm, Copenhagen, Gothemburg and probably places that I forgot.

I'm not that involved any longer. It got a life of its own, and is just continually growing.

I'm not saying, join our group. I'm saying that it's not that hard creating and joining a religion that makes sense. Christianity just doesn't.

Spirituality is an actual thing. Loads of the stuff in religion is just practical advice. I personally see God as an emotional tool. It's somewhere to direct your gratitude for being alive. You can do all that without actually believing in an actual magical God. I think it was Habermas who defined God as "the name with give to our hopes and dreams".

I also feel filled up by the holy spirit on a regular basis. I'm still an atheist. There's a hell of a lot going for spiritual practices, that aren't woo. Perhaps try some of that? There's Yoga or Buddhist meditation? There's loads out there.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to sacrifice science and common sense because you feel that a religion is helping you.

I also suggest reading up on cognitive dissonance. It's unpleasant being in cognitive dissonance. So we subconsciously manage it by minimising facts of the opposing side. We know how the psychology of this works. There's not room in the head for both Christian faith in God and accepting science, facts and reality. If you accept God your reality will start warping truth around it. It's not a good place to be. And while you're with God there is only one predictable outcome. There's absolutely a correlation between stuff like faith in God and uncritically accepting fake news or denying global warming.

And of course you'll be no less welcome here as a theist. We're not much of sceptics if our "faith" is unable to cope with criticism. Any belief is worthless if it isn't tested. Including atheism.
I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.

I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 01:48 PM   #681200 / #14
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I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.
Come on. You're just dodging thinking about it. All that means is that you haven't thought it through. That means that there's one or both you're not taking seriously, but just letting your subconscious work it out. I'm pretty sure your spiritual practice will suffer. There's few things as good for my mind as conscious clarity of purpose and thought.

Here's a tip. Work it out consciously and with purpose. Then you won't be one of those who can't explain why you believe what you believe. We all believe things for a reason. All you are saying is that you don't know the reason you have for believing. How about starting there? I promise it'll make you happier. It worked for me.

edit: an example of what I mean. Mysticism is a popular form of religion. But mysticism is an embrace of the mystery of life. A mystic doesn't necessarily believe anything. That's what mystery means. They just enjoy that mystery. Mysticism is perfectly compatible with a scientific outlook. It's also compatible with being an idiot, because mystics are also often religious extremists and militant fanatics. But there's nothing in mysticism that will inherently lead to that.

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I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.
By the sound of it, I'd say you're already on good way to crack this.

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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:06 PM   #681204 / #15
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I do believe in God and I see no reason that in doing so I should have to reject science. I have no answers for you abot the discrepancies between what science has found and what is in the Bible. I didn't last year or the year before that, so I will just tell nyou the truth and that Is I just don't know.
Come on. You're just dodging thinking about it. All that means is that you haven't thought it through. That means that there's one or both you're not taking seriously, but just letting your subconscious work it out. I'm pretty sure your spiritual practice will suffer. There's few things as good for my mind as conscious clarity of purpose and thought.

Here's a tip. Work it out consciously and with purpose. Then you won't be one of those who can't explain why you believe what you believe. We all believe things for a reason. All you are saying is that you don't know the reason you have for believing. How about starting there? I promise it'll make you happier. It worked for me.

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I'm not going to try and make everything work out in the minds of others by imagining some possibility that can easily be torn apart be a more thoughtful person. The beliefs I hold, I hold dear and within myself. As I stated, I will explain myself as best I can, but I will not fabricate anything, because this is not about me trying to justify the existence of God to anyone. I'm not going to say God works in mysterious ways out of one side of my mouth and try to explain his dealing out of the other side.
By the sound of it, I'd say you're already on good way to crack this.
I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know. I'm not going to try and work something out by using that which I don't have, which is information.

I know that the what I experienced happened when I asked for it or when I came completely out from under the effects of Alcokol. I now believe that to have been because I completely lost connection with GOd when I was pickling my brain with that drug. The latter came only after I asked for the burdons to be lifted from me by God and that is what happened within a second of doing that.

What I've cracked is the idea of not being the same type of person who annoys the crap out of everyone, like these people who come to Atheist website to quote/unquote straighten everybody out because they are so full of themselves they can't see their full of something else that has nothing to do with God.

What this is is a personal relationship with God. If you have a different Idea that works for you, then I am as happy for you as I am happy for everybody else who has worked out their beliefs as best they could.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 07:11 PM   #681228 / #16
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I am not dodging anything because the truth is I don't know. I'm not going to try and work something out by using that which I don't have, which is information.

I know that the what I experienced happened when I asked for it or when I came completely out from under the effects of Alcokol. I now believe that to have been because I completely lost connection with GOd when I was pickling my brain with that drug. The latter came only after I asked for the burdons to be lifted from me by God and that is what happened within a second of doing that.

What I've cracked is the idea of not being the same type of person who annoys the crap out of everyone, like these people who come to Atheist website to quote/unquote straighten everybody out because they are so full of themselves they can't see their full of something else that has nothing to do with God.

What this is is a personal relationship with God. If you have a different Idea that works for you, then I am as happy for you as I am happy for everybody else who has worked out their beliefs as best they could.
I'd say you've swerved off here. Not knowing something, only means that. You've had a spiritual experience/spiritual awakening. That's all you've got. And that's nice. But you didn't stop there. You went onto to say that it's God. Well... God has a lot of connotations. I'm guessing Christian connotations?

"A personal relationship with God" is heavily overladen with Christian connotations, wouldn't you agree?

We've got a whole bunch of members of Syntheism who are neuroscientists. Don't ask me why they joined. They're great at explaining spirituality scientifically. We can have a personal relationship with God without their actually being a God. I think that's important to grasp... you know... if only to prove that all those years in school weren't wasted on you.
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:07 PM   #681205 / #17
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
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Old 27 Nov 2017, 02:51 PM   #681212 / #18
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justme: In theory, since you chose this, how would you know which god(s) to follow? If you explained your experience to a Hindu, they would probably claim it was one of their gods (and why not, really?). The same would go for a follower of just about any other faith.

This may go into the 'does the actual existence of god matter' thread, but why would you give credit to what is essentially a human created fiction (of a very narrow specific subset/identity) when it that is not the case?
The Hindu would see things from his perspective as would a Muslim. He would identify with the God of his understanding.

IThis is an honest question and I can only answer it from a perspective of my faith.

I truly believe if there was only one God and it was not the God I believe him to be, he would have corrected my understanding before took way the burdens that I asked him to take. I do not think he would do anything in the name of anyone else.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 01:53 PM   #681405 / #19
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I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.
I am curious about a few things. You say on the one hand that you asked “God” to “take all the craziness” with your daughter away and then felt the “Holy Spirit” and that you are now an “unapologetic Christian.”

Two questions spring to mind:
  1. Why Christian?
  2. Did this god in fact “take all the craziness” with your daughter away?

I ask 1 because as you noted you had been living a “fraud” among us, presumably meaning that you were either pretending to be an atheist or thought you were an atheist until this moment of desperate outreach to the heavens. But the fact that you immediately translated everything into Christian terminology would tend to betray that you never deprogrammed on any level to begin with.

Which is fine, but that leads us to 2. From what you wrote here and elsewhere of late, it would appear that you have been under tremendous stress for many different reasons, but in particular for suppressing your true identity; not just from us here, of course and in regard to your religious beliefs, but in the world in general and with your family in regard to much deeper identity issues, which in itself is, as you know, an extremely stressful situation that has been weighing on you most likely your entire life. That’s a LOT of stress as a constant and it’s all centered around suppressing your true identity.

Now let’s break down what happened in regard to 1. You spoke in your mind’s voice within your skull (or you may have actually forced breath through your larynx and spoke out loud) your ask, not of an unspecified magical being or even a general concept of a god, but specifically the “Christian” version of such a being and that ask was specific (to take all the craziness with your daughter away).

Iow, you freed a part of your suppressed identity—i.e., the part that says, “I am a Christian”—that you had been repressing along with the other parts of your identity for whatever reason.

Then what happened? Did this being answer your ask? No. The “craziness” with your daughter is still there. Instead what happened was a dopamine release from the stress of pretending you aren’t a Christian being released and that relief of stress—tied to a deeper issue of true identity—washed over you, which you, being a Christian interpreted as the “Holy Spirit” bathing you in warmth. A warming sensation, btw, that naturally accompanies any such intense stress relief/dopamine release. Just voicing something that has long been repressed causes the exact same reaction; no gods needed.

Why am I pointing this out? Because, you did not just reach out to the universe for the solution to a serious problem. You have been under extreme stress because of a serious problem that backed you into a corner (or “foxhole”) and out of desperation to solve an insolvable problem fell back on cult programming. The relief from that suppressed programming being released was then misinterpreted by you into cult terminology and doing what it was intended to do; ignore your actual problem, but still feel good (dopamine release).

So, while plebian is correct in that part of the issue with having stress and “problems” to begin with is how we feel about them, this kind of stress release doesn’t actually address your problem; far from it in fact. It addresses your strong, programmed desire to deny the problem and simply supplant those feelings with the drug of cultism (the opiate of the masses). Because part of the problem—central no less—is that it is not easily resolved. In your mind, it requires magic, because only magic—and therefore only a magical being—could possibly take away the craziness.

Which is false. You can take away the craziness, you just don’t know how to go about it. It feels overwhelming. And cults like Christianity know this and deliberately give you a way out but it never actually solves any problems. You don’t have to do anything but ask the magical being and you can trigger a dopamine release so that you are literally drugging yourself rather than addressing the actual problem.

What would you say to someone who wrote, “The only way to deal with my problems is to ignore them and shoot up heroin to make me feel good about ignoring them”? You’d (hopefully) be appalled by such a proposition, but that is effectively exactly what you are doing, only dopamine is far more potent than heroin.

Again, you asked and it did not take the craziness with your daughter away; by your own words all “it” did was flood your body with a warm feeling. And you are mistaking your OWN stress relief mechanisms as evidence of a belief you already had programmed into you. If not, then you would have said something very different, like, “I shouted out to the universe and just voicing my worries helped and I felt better.” It’s the exact same sequence of events only no programmed cult terminology.

If that still isn’t clear then ask yourself why you didn’t say something like, “I asked Mithras to take the craziness with my daughter away and suddenly he filled me with his light and I am now an unapologetic Pagan” or “I asked Allah and I am now an unapologetic Muslim”?

ETA: Believe it or not, I’m not saying any of this to challenge your Christianity; I’m saying it because you still have a problem to solve only instead of doing so, you’re in serious danger of just becoming a drug addict again, only the drug is Christianity and your own dopamine.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 02:41 PM   #681410 / #20
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You can take away the craziness, you just don’t know how to go about it. It feels overwhelming. And cults like Christianity know this and deliberately give you a way out but it never actually solves any problems. You don’t have to do anything but ask the magical being and you can trigger a dopamine release so that you are literally drugging yourself rather than addressing the actual problem.
This expands on my point.

Justme, I've seen far too many parents going through this same sort of agony. Sometimes- usually- all you can do is to refuse to let your daughter or son drag you down with them; tell them "it ain't my little red wagon, and I ain't a-gonna pull it." Which is hard, hard, I know. But when your kids get past 20 or so, you have to let them steer their own course; and if they persist in trying to navigate dangerous waters, don't follow them. All you can do is warn them to the best of your ability, and only offer such help as you can afford without risking your own life and well being. Don't let her guilt you into dealing with things only she is responsible for.
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Old 29 Nov 2017, 10:16 PM   #681452 / #21
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I almost lost me mind a while ago and fell down on my knees and asked God to take all of this craziness with my daughter away and felt the Holy Spirit come over me like a wave of warmth, I haven't felt since my body came off the alcohol some 40 years ago.

I had tried to live in both worlds as a fraud and I can no longer do that. I have come here to profess being an unapologetic Christian, but one that has no intention of evangelizing those who don't wish to here the word of God.
I am curious about a few things. You say on the one hand that you asked “God” to “take all the craziness” with your daughter away and then felt the “Holy Spirit” and that you are now an “unapologetic Christian.”

Two questions spring to mind:
  1. Why Christian?
  2. Did this god in fact “take all the craziness” with your daughter away?

I ask 1 because as you noted you had been living a “fraud” among us, presumably meaning that you were either pretending to be an atheist or thought you were an atheist until this moment of desperate outreach to the heavens. But the fact that you immediately translated everything into Christian terminology would tend to betray that you never deprogrammed on any level to begin with.

Which is fine, but that leads us to 2. From what you wrote here and elsewhere of late, it would appear that you have been under tremendous stress for many different reasons, but in particular for suppressing your true identity; not just from us here, of course and in regard to your religious beliefs, but in the world in general and with your family in regard to much deeper identity issues, which in itself is, as you know, an extremely stressful situation that has been weighing on you most likely your entire life. That’s a LOT of stress as a constant and it’s all centered around suppressing your true identity.

Now let’s break down what happened in regard to 1. You spoke in your mind’s voice within your skull (or you may have actually forced breath through your larynx and spoke out loud) your ask, not of an unspecified magical being or even a general concept of a god, but specifically the “Christian” version of such a being and that ask was specific (to take all the craziness with your daughter away).

Iow, you freed a part of your suppressed identity—i.e., the part that says, “I am a Christian”—that you had been repressing along with the other parts of your identity for whatever reason.

Then what happened? Did this being answer your ask? No. The “craziness” with your daughter is still there. Instead what happened was a dopamine release from the stress of pretending you aren’t a Christian being released and that relief of stress—tied to a deeper issue of true identity—washed over you, which you, being a Christian interpreted as the “Holy Spirit” bathing you in warmth. A warming sensation, btw, that naturally accompanies any such intense stress relief/dopamine release. Just voicing something that has long been repressed causes the exact same reaction; no gods needed.

Why am I pointing this out? Because, you did not just reach out to the universe for the solution to a serious problem. You have been under extreme stress because of a serious problem that backed you into a corner (or “foxhole”) and out of desperation to solve an insolvable problem fell back on cult programming. The relief from that suppressed programming being released was then misinterpreted by you into cult terminology and doing what it was intended to do; ignore your actual problem, but still feel good (dopamine release).

So, while plebian is correct in that part of the issue with having stress and “problems” to begin with is how we feel about them, this kind of stress release doesn’t actually address your problem; far from it in fact. It addresses your strong, programmed desire to deny the problem and simply supplant those feelings with the drug of cultism (the opiate of the masses). Because part of the problem—central no less—is that it is not easily resolved. In your mind, it requires magic, because only magic—and therefore only a magical being—could possibly take away the craziness.

Which is false. You can take away the craziness, you just don’t know how to go about it. It feels overwhelming. And cults like Christianity know this and deliberately give you a way out but it never actually solves any problems. You don’t have to do anything but ask the magical being and you can trigger a dopamine release so that you are literally drugging yourself rather than addressing the actual problem.

What would you say to someone who wrote, “The only way to deal with my problems is to ignore them and shoot up heroin to make me feel good about ignoring them”? You’d (hopefully) be appalled by such a proposition, but that is effectively exactly what you are doing, only dopamine is far more potent than heroin.

Again, you asked and it did not take the craziness with your daughter away; by your own words all “it” did was flood your body with a warm feeling. And you are mistaking your OWN stress relief mechanisms as evidence of a belief you already had programmed into you. If not, then you would have said something very different, like, “I shouted out to the universe and just voicing my worries helped and I felt better.” It’s the exact same sequence of events only no programmed cult terminology.

If that still isn’t clear then ask yourself why you didn’t say something like, “I asked Mithras to take the craziness with my daughter away and suddenly he filled me with his light and I am now an unapologetic Pagan” or “I asked Allah and I am now an unapologetic Muslim”?

ETA: Believe it or not, I’m not saying any of this to challenge your Christianity; I’m saying it because you still have a problem to solve only instead of doing so, you’re in serious danger of just becoming a drug addict again, only the drug is Christianity and your own dopamine.
I ran away from home to get away from all that. I never looked back, so no, I was not as you say deprogrammed.
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Old 30 Nov 2017, 12:46 AM   #681459 / #22
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So, isn’t it more likely that the feeling of warmth that washed over you that you have attributed to the “Holy Ghost” was just the normal physiological response as I described and that the reason you have instead attributed it to a magical being is due to your previous programming?

And, more importantly, am I correct in assuming that the problem with your daughter has not gone away?
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