Friends of the Secular Café: Forums
Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain
Talk Freethought
Rational Skepticism Forum
EvC Forum: Evolution vs. Creation
Living Nonreligion Discussion Forum
The Round Table (RatPags)
Talk Rational!
Blogs
Blue Collar Atheist
Camels With Hammers
Ebonmuse: Daylight Atheism
Nontheist Nexus
The Re-Enlightenment
Rosa Rubicondior
The Skeptical Zone
Watching the Deniers
Others
Christianity Disproved
Count Me Out
Ebon Musings
Freethinker.co.uk
 
       

Go Back   Secular Café > Intellectual Debate and Discussion Forums > Religion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 16 Feb 2017, 06:57 PM   #664667 / #1
Hermit
Metierioric fail
 
Hermit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 6,046
Default Why does the existence or non-existence of god matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
My quick answer though to "Why does the existence or non-existence of god matter?" is that if there is no god - then I would assume that we all live as we are doing and then die, and that's it. But if there is a god, like the God of the Bible, who has given us instructions on how to get to the next level, then the people have hope of not dying. So, it matters infinitely (to those who want to continue on).
Parsing it: I don't want to die. If there is no afterlife I will die. Without a god there is no afterlife. I want there to be a god.

In short: Wishful thinking.
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 16 Feb 2017, 11:25 PM   #664685 / #2
Jackrabbit
House Pervert
 
Jackrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: City Dump
Posts: 1,258
Default

Why else would a god have been created?

One group of people wanted to feel important and/or control the lives of others. They did the creation of the god, pulling him out of their ass.

Another group of people fell for it and jumped through hoops at the whim of the god-creators. Including giving them money, power, and unearned respect.

Which continues to this day.

It isn't really that complicated.
__________________
Moe: "Why don't you get a toupee with some brains in it?" <whack!>
Jackrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 02:49 AM   #664687 / #3
Copernicus
Industrial Linguist
Admin; Mod: Miscellaneous Discussions, Philosophy & Morality, Politics & World Events
 
Copernicus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 7,488
Default

I think that 1I makes a fair point about the Abrahamic God, which most Christians and Arabs believe will ensure survival after death of the physical body. In fact, immortality is a theme that goes all the way back to Gilgamesh, which doubtless grew out of similar precursor stories. All living things strive to prolong their existence, and belief that immortality is attainable would seem to make sense in complex living beings like us, because we are acutely aware of our own mortality.

So the belief does matter to people on that score, but there are probably other motivations to believe. For example, God also serves as an origin myth. God also affects our lives before death--in terms of answering prayers and performing miracles. God is also useful to those who can convince others that God supports some goal that they want fulfilled, because people can be motivated to rally behind that goal.
Copernicus is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 06:56 AM   #664692 / #4
Politesse
Sapere aude
 
Politesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chochenyo territory
Posts: 19,523
Default

The question presupposes an emotional motivation; there's no objective reason for something to "matter".
__________________
"The truth about stories is that's all we are" ~Thomas King
Politesse is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 09:05 AM   #664701 / #5
1ICrying
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 62
Default

Thank you all for engaging with me in this discussion so far. Here are my replies:


Hi Tubby.

You wrote I'm guessing you are liberal enough to join him in denying eternal damnation as a possible fate in an afterlife?

It is hard to think that a loving God would be into the ‘eternal damnation’. I wouldn’t guess it’s impossible though (all things are possible with God, no?). Perhaps some entities could deserve such a fate, but I am lead to believe that simple non-existence might be a more likely fate, similar to all those sperm that never made it to the egg.

I’ve also heard a theory that goes a little like this: that God is like a light, a shining light of love in a universe that is otherwise cold and dark. The further you travel from the light, the colder and darker it gets. Being that we have free-will, there are those who will choose the darkness forever. This would be the ‘eternal damnation’ – self inflicted. According to the Bible though, I believe Satan and his followers are cast into a lake of fire – which doesn’t sound like they’ll have much chance to turn it around.

For others though, perhaps this might apply – especially after it is clearly revealed that God is God and Christ is Christ etc. I have always found it difficult to imagine that a loving God would drop the curtain down suddenly and, depending on which side of it you are at that point, there is no more choice or chance to get it right. So in this scenario, God just keeps on being what he is, which is ‘ Love’, and we can continue to walk towards that or away.


Roo St. Gallus

You asked me:

I'm going to speculate that 1I is a 'literary Bible' kind of practitioner.

"It's literature...with stories and lessons and wisdom and folly and all that."

Am I close?



Thank you Roo for asking. My take on the Bible goes something like this. It’s creation was inspired by God. It is full of stories and lessons and wisdom, for sure. But it is also the Word of God (the stuff God wants us to know).

Aside from the stories and lessons and wisdom, what amazes me about the Bible are just how many prophecies it contains. In just predicting the coming of the Messiah, there are over some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that were written in there by the Jews, between 1500 and 300 BC, at minimum, a full 3 centuries before our carpenter arrives. When you read those prophecies in the Old Testament and match them up with their fulfillment, it sends shivers along the spine. How many other books contain the proof of fulfilled prophecy? Nostradamus had a couple of good ones, but over 300? What more proof does anyone need? For me, over 300 is plenty enough. The proof is right in the pudding.


Hi Hermit.

You wrote:

Parsing it: I don't want to die. If there is no afterlife I will die. Without a god there is no afterlife. I want there to be a god.

In short: Wishful thinking.


Well, I think my answer to Roo covers this. In my mind, it’s far from wishful thinking. Can you explain Hermit how these 300 or so prophecies can be present in the Bible, and fulfilled in the Bible, and not be true?


Hi Jackrabbit.

You wrote:

Why else would a god have been created?

One group of people wanted to feel important and/or control the lives of others. They did the creation of the god, pulling him out of their ass.

Another group of people fell for it and jumped through hoops at the whim of the god-creators. Including giving them money, power, and unearned respect.

Which continues to this day.

It isn't really that complicated.




Again, I refer you to my words above about the prophecies and the Bible. If it was just a giant hoax that took over 2000 years to put together and execute – then fine, you got me. I’m fooled. But if it isn’t hoax that was pulled out of ‘their ass’, then you may have just been fooled. I hope not. I don't want anyone to miss what is going to be the most mind blowing party. This is just the qualifying lap friends.

Thank you all again to those who are following this thread and for Secular Cafe for making it all possible. Talk soon. 1I
1ICrying is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 01:44 PM   #664712 / #6
Jackrabbit
House Pervert
 
Jackrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: City Dump
Posts: 1,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Again, I refer you to my words above about the prophecies and the Bible.
Assumes the "events" in the bible actually happened and that the "participants" actually existed. Keeping your story straight in a work of fiction is far easier than "predicting" real events.
Quote:
But if it isn’t hoax that was pulled out of ‘their ass’, then you may have just been fooled.
I'm willing to take that "risk". If the story made more sense, I'd be more inclined to go along with it. But it's an incoherent, contradictory mess.
Quote:
I hope not. I don't want anyone to miss what is going to be the most mind blowing party. This is just the qualifying lap friends.
I don't want anyone to waste their entire life jumping through hoops to "please" a vicious, dubious cosmic overlord. It bothers me that they reject many of the pleasures of life for no actual reason.

I especially don't want them trying to push the shit on other people without being asked for it, especially showing up on my doorstep uninvited. Evangelism is one of the worst aspects.

I absolutely don't want them forcing their shit on other people via legislation. I.e. bathroom bills and other oppression of LGBT people. That is the very worst aspect.

Without those things, it would be easy to just ignore religion completely, like bigfoot trackers and alien abductees. But it causes too many real problems.
Jackrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 04:12 PM   #664720 / #7
Politesse
Sapere aude
 
Politesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chochenyo territory
Posts: 19,523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
For others though, perhaps this might apply – especially after it is clearly revealed that God is God and Christ is Christ etc. I have always found it difficult to imagine that a loving God would drop the curtain down suddenly and, depending on which side of it you are at that point, there is no more choice or chance to get it right. So in this scenario, God just keeps on being what he is, which is ‘ Love’, and we can continue to walk towards that or away.
Have you ever read the work of Origen? He was the original apokatastatist, at least in print, and proposed something akin to this for most human beings. St Gregory of Nyssa also wrote something of the sort, that we are all ascending the same mountain with varying degrees of success and failure in this life and the next.
Politesse is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 05:02 PM   #664726 / #8
Hermit
Metierioric fail
 
Hermit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 6,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Hi Hermit.

You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Parsing it: I don't want to die. If there is no afterlife I will die. Without a god there is no afterlife. I want there to be a god.

In short: Wishful thinking.
Well, I think my answer to Roo covers this. In my mind, it’s far from wishful thinking. Can you explain Hermit how these 300 or so prophecies can be present in the Bible, and fulfilled in the Bible, and not be true?
I was rewording what you actually said, and I think it was a fair rewording, but never mind. I won't lose any sleep over your refusal to discuss my interpretation of what you actually said in light of what you actually said. I'll just put it down to evasiveness or an inability to pursue a logical line of thought.

With that out of the way, I shall now follow your new tack: Before I could explain how 300 or so prophecies can be present in the Bible, and fulfilled in the Bible, and not be true, I'd have to see 300 or so prophecies can be present in the Bible, and fulfilled in the Bible. As it stands, my reading of the alleged prophesies remind me of prophesies of booms and busts in the economy, and changes in the weather - that is to say, if they are sufficiently vague, they are bound to be correct sooner or later.

For example, if the biblical reports are to be trusted, Jesus prophesied a second coming. Some people around him expected it to occur within their own lifetime. 2000 years later the date of the prophesied event is still being guessed at and keeps being revised. People of the Jewish faith, of course are still waiting for the first.

As a side note I request that you familiarise yourself with and use the quote tags as a matter of courtesy. They are easy to learn to use properly and they make following as well as continuing parallel strands of discussions a lot easier. Thank you in advance.
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 17 Feb 2017, 08:06 PM   #664744 / #9
Roo St. Gallus
Loose Contact
 
Roo St. Gallus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 8,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Roo St. Gallus

You asked me:

I'm going to speculate that 1I is a 'literary Bible' kind of practitioner.

"It's literature...with stories and lessons and wisdom and folly and all that."

Am I close?



Thank you Roo for asking. My take on the Bible goes something like this. It’s creation was inspired by God. It is full of stories and lessons and wisdom, for sure. But it is also the Word of God (the stuff God wants us to know).

Aside from the stories and lessons and wisdom, what amazes me about the Bible are just how many prophecies it contains. In just predicting the coming of the Messiah, there are over some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that were written in there by the Jews, between 1500 and 300 BC, at minimum, a full 3 centuries before our carpenter arrives. When you read those prophecies in the Old Testament and match them up with their fulfillment, it sends shivers along the spine. How many other books contain the proof of fulfilled prophecy? Nostradamus had a couple of good ones, but over 300? What more proof does anyone need? For me, over 300 is plenty enough. The proof is right in the pudding.


Hi Hermit.

You wrote:

Parsing it: I don't want to die. If there is no afterlife I will die. Without a god there is no afterlife. I want there to be a god.

In short: Wishful thinking.


Well, I think my answer to Roo covers this. In my mind, it’s far from wishful thinking. Can you explain Hermit how these 300 or so prophecies can be present in the Bible, and fulfilled in the Bible, and not be true?
I
Well, now. I can now see that we diverge significantly over interpretation right here.

Y'see...Those 'prophecies' mean absolutely nothing if you consider the most recent portion of the scriptures to have been a literary development out of the prior set of scriptures and liberally reinterpreted for polemical purposes. Indeed, the gospels and 'New Testament' documents are literary devices and the whole 'prophecy' aspect was to harvest enough wonders to ascribe to their newly invented savior. The figure is an invention and part of the invention was parsing existing scripture for 'prophecies' which they could ascribe to their teacher figure having made manifest; midrash and pesher. Textproofing and retelling for invented divine reputation. Voila!...do we have a savior for you!

While we're at it, you can dispense with the whole 'inspired by God' thing. I don't think there are many here who who even accept the god concept, much less your particular take on it. As for 'inspiration', I don't think fictitious gratuitous divine beings need to be invoked to explain a whole lot of malarky collated in to a big book of religious bureaucratic jargon. It seems to be a widespread human trait. As far as I'm concerned, any god is merely put in to play as some kind of subtle threat against those who might have temerity to disagree with the god-flinger's particular position. I note how often it is that these gods tend to talk to these people. Or, so they claim.

You do realize anybody can make that claim based upon absolutely nothing at all? My response is to dismiss ALL such claims. No god, no divine inspiration.

I suspect I'm much closer to Hermit's interpretation.
__________________
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION!

Last edited by Roo St. Gallus; 17 Feb 2017 at 09:23 PM.
Roo St. Gallus is online now   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 20 Feb 2017, 03:49 PM   #665000 / #10
MattShizzle
Zombie for Satan
 
MattShizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bernville, PA
Posts: 18,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Thank you all for engaging with me in this discussion so far. Here are In just predicting the coming of the Messiah, there are over some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that were written in there by the Jews, between 1500 and 300 BC, at minimum, a full 3 centuries before our carpenter arrives. When you read those prophecies in the Old Testament and match them up with their fulfillment, it sends shivers along the spine. How many other books contain the proof of fulfilled prophecy?
It's not difficult at all to write a book that "fulfills" prophecies written in an earlier book...
MattShizzle is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 21 Feb 2017, 02:38 AM   #665039 / #11
Tubby
omnibus nabisco
 
Tubby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
God is like a light, a shining light of love in a universe that is otherwise cold and dark. The further you travel from the light, the colder and darker it gets. Being that we have free-will, there are those who will choose the darkness forever. This would be the ‘eternal damnation’ – self inflicted. {Tubby's emphasis}
While that may sound reasonable to a lot of folks, it is inconsistent with the way some read scripture. See this for instance.

I quote from that source below---
Quote:
God has ordained to redeem a remnant of humanity to salvation. These elect individuals were chosen before the creation of the world...
Tubby is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 23 Feb 2017, 06:22 PM   #665276 / #12
Tubby
omnibus nabisco
 
Tubby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Thank you all for engaging with me in this discussion so far.
I don't know how filled up your day-to-day schedule may be, but I will suggest that if you have the time, search YouTube for videos by Matt Dillahunty and Anthony Magnabosco.
Tubby is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 20 Feb 2017, 09:16 AM   #664963 / #13
Siempre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
My quick answer though to "Why does the existence or non-existence of god matter?" is that if there is no god - then I would assume that we all live as we are doing and then die, and that's it. But if there is a god, like the God of the Bible, who has given us instructions on how to get to the next level, then the people have hope of not dying. So, it matters infinitely (to those who want to continue on).
Parsing it: I don't want to die. If there is no afterlife I will die. Without a god there is no afterlife. I want there to be a god.

In short: Wishful thinking.
The problem with that wishful thinking is that it holds us back... BIG TIME.

We could probably be 500 to 1,000 years more advanced right now if it weren't for religion. Just think about that. Not only would we be more advanced but a TON more effort would be going toward extending life and stuff like that if everyone didn't think there was an afterlife. There is a good chance we could be all but immortal right now.

Granted, with such advancement we could have just as easily wiped out all life on the planet by now also.
Siempre is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 09:33 AM   #667320 / #14
1ICrying
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 62
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sohy View Post
Quote:
There is absolutely no real good reason that we are here on this planet - flying through space, but here we are. Where is the light of reason for that. For me - it's described in the Bible, but for you? Do we die and that's it? What would be the point?
Why does there have to be a purpose, other than the very specific ones that we make for ourselves? And, if there is an all powerful god, where did he/she come from? How can such a powerful entity exist out of nothing? I find that belief to be far more absurd than simply believing that we exist by chance, as a result of evolution. If you are able to believe that an all powerful god can exist without any explanation, then why is it so difficult, that we humans are the result of evolution and that the universe exists for reasons that we don't fully understand. Why can't it all be random?

I've lived 67 years on the planet, far longer than the many generations of humans before me. I'm thankful for that. I'm an RN so I've watched countless numbers of people die. It's not a scary thing if you have good people caring for you, not even if you are an atheist. It's just hard on those that love us watching us fade away.

Have a good day 1iCrying.
Hi Sohy, sorry not to get back on this. As you know, I'm bombarded here with questions and comments on my views. As much as I would like to get back to them all, I would need to quit my job to find the time. I started out trying to do just that, and trying to put some time into forming a good response, but the posts piled up and I have been accused of avoiding certain questions. I'm not going anywhere too soon, so long as Secular Cafe will host this thread, but I am not like a lot of the others here who are posting non stop.

Anyhow Sohy, enough about that. How are you? Are you still an RN or have you retired now? My mother was an RN and I have nothing but respect for your work. A most noble profession. I have never ever witnessed someone die myself, though I did once interview a man with cancer who died 2 weeks later - that's as close as I've gotten.

Anyhow, on to your main questions for me.

Why does there have to be a purpose, other than the very specific ones that we make for ourselves?
And, if there is an all powerful god, where did he/she come from?


Here's the thing. When it comes to these big questions - ultimately - I don't think any of us people can know. We are but mere creations compared to a creator. There comes a time, when you're contemplating God especially, that you need to let go of your human reason and just except that we do not and can not know.

And, there are then those questions, such as your's above, that is so deep in a sense, that one really would have to question if even God knew. I remember asking that in Sunday School, where did God come from? And the answer the teacher gave was 'he has always been here and always will be'. Now that explanation is what I'm talking about, it pretty much goes beyond our reasoning mind. And that's about as close as I believe anyone can really get on that one. But we could imagine that God is beyond time and space. He created it. Also beyond good and evil. He created it. And when I say He, I am in no ways saying that God is a male, or having a human like body, but that God would be wonderful and terrifying to behold in reality - beyond our comprehension.


How can such a powerful entity exist out of nothing?

Again, I don't know and I don't think that any human philosopher/scientist or other could truthfully know. If God was there forever, then you could say that there was never nothing. Another stab at an answer might be that there was once nothing. And so everything and nothing were one in the same. And so from nothing, everything was born. Who knows.


I find that belief to be far more absurd than simply believing that we exist by chance, as a result of evolution.

Well Sohy, we all have to make up our own minds about that, and even then, we are all raised with our parents beliefs, i know. In the end, isn't really just a coin flip? Should we really have to know? Personally, I believe that there was evolution, just was our scientists describe, and this evolution is God's work.

I believe it is God's work because a) I was taught about the Bible from a young age and the Bible said that it was God's work and I have not yet encountered definitive evidence to the contrary. Is it fantastical. Yes! I know, Santa was a let down to us all. So how about we say it's time for some real magic - some real fairy tale magic. As I've been trying to say before - we are living in the middle of a dream as it is. People say it's all very logical this chance and evolution - but God is not. The fact that we're here is a fairy tale already - so how about a bit more. The Bible promises it. The Bible is real, it exists. No, that doesn't 100% make it true, but even if there's a slim slim slim slim slim chance, then you might want to give it a chance.

The story goes like this. We believe that we are saved and we will be saved. All you have to do is believe. If you can't believe, because earthly logic will not let you belief in this fairy tale, then remember that, with God, our earthly logic is not enough. We need faith. Faith that what it says in the Bible is true. Faith that the Bible, which goes beyond logic, is telling the truth. If it's just a big lie, then it would in fact be a very evil invention. But then why would a book that is so evil preach almost exclusively about love? Like Jesus said 'If I am an evil because I am casting out demons, then I would be working against myself.' If you tell me that love is truly evil and evil is good, then I really was fooled. If Jesus and his gang were really just out to tell a big lie, then why did they all go to their deaths to defend it? Why would they tell a lie about love?


If you are able to believe that an all powerful god can exist without any explanation, then why is it so difficult, that we humans are the result of evolution and that the universe exists for reasons that we don't fully understand. Why can't it all be random?

I guess it could, but as a follower of the Bible, that book that exists here amongst the randomness, I am taught that it was not Random and that a God does exist. That's my explanation - that book that's in every hotel room drawer - it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.

When I was saying that if we die, and that's it, then what's the point. That really is a feeling I have. I believe there is a meaning to life, and a God, and that my memories and my life and everyone's will be perfectly preserved for eternity to come.

So that's why it's so important to do your best on this trial run here called life, because this is when we get to prove/show/become who we really are. And from there, I guess we will bask proportionally in the glory or shame that we deserve.

On the other hand, if you believe that we are born, develop and learn and have all of these experiences and memories and then boom, lights out, that's it - then where is there any logic in that? Why would all this magic - this wonder - this mind blowing experience that we call life - how could it just end in death necessarily. That would make all of this existence just a real tragedy in the end. But, if it's not the end - then we have a real fairy tale ending. That's the long shot that us Christians are taking. But at least it's a shot.

Sohy, that's about it for me tonight. I hope you believe that I have tried to answer your questions for me as honestly and as head on as I can.

I remember you said that you kind of abandoned your faith in the Bible when a girl said that you should 'think less'. I can see how that would have affected you the way it did, as no one wants to have a bag thrown over their head. I too, having being brought up in it, had to take time to do a lot of reading and looking around at other ways of looking at it all. In my experience, I ended up coming back to 'Christianity', and it was definitely my own brand of Christianity. No, not completely watered down - not by a long shot, but I did a lot of studying about Christianity too and the more I do, the more my belief in it is growing (save your enthusiasm boys).

Anyhow, you say you found peace without it. That Sohy is good to hear. I am not going to start judging anyone for not being a Christian. For one we are told not to judge others and two, I believe only God knows what his plans are for us - it's his judgement.

Thanks

1I
1ICrying is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 10:09 AM   #667321 / #15
subsymbolic
screwtape
Mod: Philosophy & Morality, Smoking Section
 
subsymbolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: under the gnomon
Posts: 13,368
Default

Quote:
it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.
What is it about the Bible that could not be made up? Face it, most of the stories are recycled from older faiths.
subsymbolic is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 12:40 PM   #667322 / #16
Grendel
Juvenile Member
 
Grendel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bunya Mountains
Posts: 2,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subsymbolic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
- it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.
What is it about the Bible that could not be made up?
The Book of Ecclesiastes. That's someone's knowledge from experience.
Grendel is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:41 PM   #667335 / #17
Jackrabbit
House Pervert
 
Jackrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: City Dump
Posts: 1,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsymbolic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
- it tells a truth that was not and could not be made up in my opinion.
What is it about the Bible that could not be made up?
The Book of Ecclesiastes. That's someone's knowledge from experience.
I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Quote:
The story is narrated by Manuel Garcia "Mannie" O'Kelly-Davis, a computer technician who discovers that HOLMES IV has achieved self-awareness and has developed a sense of humor. Mannie names it "Mike" after Mycroft Holmes, brother of Sherlock Holmes, and they become friends.[5]
Thus Mannie "tells us" about his "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "political situation" on Earth's moon.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known (many people met Heinlein while he was alive, and many other writers were friends) and no one claims it is other than fiction?


edit: ah, looking at your other comments, I appear to be replying to sarcasm; oh well, I re-address it to 1ICrying, who does think the bible "experiences" were real.

Last edited by Jackrabbit; 25 Mar 2017 at 02:11 PM.
Jackrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:45 PM   #667336 / #18
Grendel
Juvenile Member
 
Grendel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bunya Mountains
Posts: 2,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackrabbit View Post
I point you to Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Thus we hear about Mannie's "experiences" fighting the Lunar Authority, giving us "knowledge" about the "situation" there.

How is that different from the "knowledge from experience" in Ecclesiastes, other than that the source of TMIAHM is well known and no one claims it is other than fiction?
It's not fiction TMHAIM is true! Written from experience
Grendel is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:09 PM   #667328 / #19
Hermit
Metierioric fail
 
Hermit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 6,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
I'm bombarded here with questions and comments on my views. As much as I would like to get back to them all, I would need to quit my job to find the time. I started out trying to do just that, and trying to put some time into forming a good response, but the posts piled up and I have been accused of avoiding certain questions.
Yes, both statements are true. You cannot reply to all questions and comments addressed to you and you are avoiding certain questions. The latter makes it increasingly obvious that you are not interested in actually discussing assertions you make. As soon as someone puts you on the spot you escape like a slippery fish, only to ramble on elsewhere in true proselytising and evangelising fashion.

You can of course demonstrate that my impression is mistaken by ceasing to drop previous strands in this thread like hot potatoes and starting to engage with new ones. Perhaps you could start by replying to a post I addressed to you just over a week ago. To save you your precious time looking for it, here it is again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
What Do Christians say when Natural Disasters strike?
No. That is not my question. What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.

2. Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Those thousands of babies. Did they really need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within your god’s providence as well? And what exactly is so providential about it?

3. Why could your god not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son? Last I heard from you you indulged in another bout of question begging. You said it's because a sacrifice was necessary. A pre-kindergarten aged child couldn't get any more primitively circular than that.

So, still waiting for answers to these. I leave the rest of the questions I brought up before for a later time. You're not coping at all well with the ones you have chosen to address. You undoubtedly mean well, but I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:22 PM   #667331 / #20
Grendel
Juvenile Member
 
Grendel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bunya Mountains
Posts: 2,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.
Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
2. Where is the justice in killing innocent people? Those thousands of babies. Did they really need to face squarely the fact that natural disasters happen within your god’s providence as well? And what exactly is so providential about it?
Well it's not unjust. They would have died anyway from some cause or other. They'd certainly be dead by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
3. Why could your god not just forgive mankind without sacrificing his son? Last I heard from you you indulged in another bout of question begging. You said it's because a sacrifice was necessary. A pre-kindergarten aged child couldn't get any more primitively circular than that.
Because he wanted to start fresh over again. There was no re-training his son, he'd picked up bad habits. Quicker, cleaner, to just start again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
So, still waiting for answers to these.
I bet you are too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
I leave the rest of the questions I brought up before for a later time. (snigger) You're not coping at all well with the ones you have chosen to address. You undoubtedly mean well, but I'm beginning to wonder if you are capable of constructing an intelligent or even just an intelligible train of thought.
O Jesu, would that this cup was passed from me.
Grendel is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:49 PM   #667337 / #21
Hermit
Metierioric fail
 
Hermit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 6,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
What I did ask was:

1. Why does your god punish all humans for what their ancestors had done? Attempting to explain it with a curse doesn't do the job. It just begs the question if your god did the cursing. If the devil did the cursing, what does that about your god? The rest of Lutzer's spiel is just pure waffling.
Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 01:54 PM   #667338 / #22
Grendel
Juvenile Member
 
Grendel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bunya Mountains
Posts: 2,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendel View Post

Because the sin is passed down thru the DNA.
Well at least it's Original


Grendel is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 02:03 PM   #667339 / #23
sohy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 10,946
Default

1ICrying, I appreciate your willingness in attempting to explain how you can believe that god always existed. I can't agree with your conclusions, but at least you tried. From my perspective, it sounds as if you are simply very attached to the beliefs you were raised with and you aren't comfortable giving them up, so you do the best you can to try and make them sound reasonable. As long as those beliefs help you live a decent life, I won't judge you for holding them. Apparently they comfort you and help motivate you to live a good life.

It's good to see a contemporary Christian that doesn't judge others. In today's world, I find that to be very rare. I hope you are able to maintain the ability to be compassionate and non judgmental. I value those traits regardless of who holds them. Imo, it all comes down to our values and our ability to think for ourselves, even if it's somewhat limited by the confines of religion, or our own lack of understanding of things.

I hope you will stay around and participate in some of the discussions here that aren't only about religion. Perhaps we will discover that we have more in common than we think. There's a common atheist saying. "I just believe in one less god than you do." Having rejected the other gods, you only have one left to lose.


I'd like to explain in simple terms why it's so hard for me to consider an afterlife. Most of us have minds that are capable of thinking and imagining things. Our minds are merely the product of how the physical aspects of our brains, ie, neurons, axions, dendrites and chemical neurotransmitters interact. Without these very physical parts of our brain, there is no mind. Once our physical brain dies, so does our mind, what some might call the soul. It's inconceivable to me that something is going to magically appear after all of our physical structures have died. Then again, I can't imagine on entity who has interventionist powers but remains invisible. I don't think of death as necessarily negative, depending of course on how and when it occurs. On the other hand, the possibility of living in some weird spiritual afterlife forever, does not sound comforting to me. It sounds hellish. Maybe that's why I have no trouble accepting my own mortality.


So, do the best you can to enjoy what time you have on earth. I'm convinced this is the only life we get to live, for better or worse. It can bring us joy or misery depending upon our individual circumstances.

I once had a Christian friend who liked to argue with me about the afterlife. After we exhausted ourselves, she would say to me, "one day we'll find out who is right." I'd turn to her and say, "not if I'm right."
sohy is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 25 Mar 2017, 02:29 PM   #667342 / #24
Jackrabbit
House Pervert
 
Jackrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: City Dump
Posts: 1,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sohy View Post
I once had a Christian friend who liked to argue with me about the afterlife. After we exhausted ourselves, she would say to me, "one day we'll find out who is right." I'd turn to her and say, "not if I'm right."
Yeah, I mentioned that earlier. Lack of hebbin would be like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown, but there would be nobody to laugh.
Jackrabbit is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Old 06 Apr 2017, 08:48 AM   #668450 / #25
1ICrying
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 62
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattShizzle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ICrying View Post
Thank you all for engaging with me in this discussion so far. Here are In just predicting the coming of the Messiah, there are over some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that were written in there by the Jews, between 1500 and 300 BC, at minimum, a full 3 centuries before our carpenter arrives. When you read those prophecies in the Old Testament and match them up with their fulfillment, it sends shivers along the spine. How many other books contain the proof of fulfilled prophecy?
It's not difficult at all to write a book that "fulfills" prophecies written in an earlier book...
Hi Guys,

Sorry again for the lapse on my part. I have been catching up on some posts - and will just say this. Firstly, thank you for taking your time to educate me. So far, I have avoided the silver bullet intended to blow my faith out of me, but who knows, maybe it lies somewhere in the posts I have yet to digest and try to answer.

Before I get to the next question on the list (back on page 2) by Matt, I will say:

I do read the Bible - not as much as I should, but yes - I am familiar with it

I am not avoiding questions - and to show you, I will get back to doing what I was doing in the first place, which was to answer them in order.

I have been reading the posts, even those by Subsymbolic. Your answers are on the way. Sorry.


Okay - to the comment. More about prophecies. It is not difficult to write a book that 'fulfills' prophecies written in an earlier book.

From my perspective, I was raised to believe that the Bible was true. I still do not have a great reason for believing that it is not true. You are assuming that the Bible was false, so therefore put together by a bunch of liars - flat out liars. Can you prove that? Why did they do it? Why would liars push love and honesty etc up to their dying moment?

I cannot argue too much against people who do not believe that Jesus even existed - that it is all just made up - nothing happened, a story of fiction. I for one believe Jesus existed. I also believe Buddha existed. That's just where I'm at so far. And, Im not alone. Billions believe in Jesus and yet very few believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Zeus etc. Why? You should ask yourself. All those Christians are not complete idiots - they have reasons as we all do. But to compare their belief in Jesus Christ to the Easter Bunny is just a low blow.

So, if we can continue the debate (on this post here) from the viewpoint that the Bible exists - that the prophecies in question were written by the various prophets from between around 1500 bc to 300 bc, and that Jesus also existed and fulfilled those prophecies, as is detailed in the New Testament, then I would say:

it would not be easy to go around and go through the list as you say and start fulfilling them all. For one - even if there are not 2000 prophecies, or even 300, there was A LOT. For one book - it is CHUCK FULL of prophecies. So, just the sheer numbers of prophecies listed, and then fulfilled is impressive. It's like a key that has to fit a lock with a hundred variations = to find the key to fit that lock precisely is more difficult than if it were a more simple one - like a skeleton key.

Next - not all of those prophecies would have been easy to fake. The miracles - this imposter would have really had to have his tricks on the level of David Blaine to fool so many witnesses. And then to accend the cross and fufill all of the prophecies that pertain to dying on the cross - Who would go and crucify themselves for some meaningless prank. I for one believe he was the Messiah.

Even if the Bible were just a bunch of stories as you believe, what was the purpose. To keep the suckers in line? Or were a few pranksters killing time over the course of over 1000 years? It's easier for me to take it at face value - it's a true story, no more fanciful then you and I existing here somewhere in time and space typing on computers.

The Bible even says in there that the message is hiding. God is not so slow as to just lay out on the operating table, waiting for dissection. He's a step ahead. Hie's the inventor of mystery and comedy and humor; we should expect a wonderful, amazing, colourful history - as eclectic and full of wonder as is happening now. So that's part of why I believe it. Because it IS so unbelievable and screwy. Only God could have dreamt it.

On another note - I wouldn't doubt it if Trump is the antichrist or about to usher one in - maybe Ivanka. Or Barron...

Thank you Mr. Shizzle. Great question.


Goodnight all.

1I
1ICrying is offline   Reply With Quote top bottom
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Secular Café > Intellectual Debate and Discussion Forums > Religion

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
 
Ocean Zero by vBSkins.com | Customised by Antechinus